1084 quenching, just the blade?

Page: I believe that the frontier that awaits is the relationship between transition zones and the adjacent structures.
All of my technical articles are peer reviewed by professionals who have actually worked in the field I am addressing in the particular article. They are not simply men with degrees who only regurgitate what they have read in the textbooks but professionals who look to the future rather than stand safely on tradition. One thing we have learned is that much of what we have learned has been learned in the past by others before us.

My series on myths is intended to be a history of many discussions of what was once accepted as fact and at one time seriously debated. I write about them because many of the new generation have had no experience of what was once traditional knowledge.

One of our students is doing some post graduate work describing what he learned in a seminar last January. When his report is finished I hope to share it with those who are interested, with his permission.

One goal that Rex and I made when we started our nearly 20 years of study is to keep the language simple and understandable for those who have not had the benefit (if it is a benefit) of the vernacular of the science of metals. The goal of keeping it simple to describe and understand has had great benefit to us in our work, this goal has greatly helped us to understand what for and why.

It is not the microscope that projects the future, but only tells us what happened, it is up to us to build the future knife. Every knife maker has in his shop every thing he needs to test knives for the function he intends them to perform.



Mr. Fowler,

I will try to ask this question without sounding sarcastic, and I please forgive me if I sound otherwise.

I have seen your handles and tangs: hidden tangs. I have put the same basic shape on my own, though in A-2.

I think the operative question here is this: Does grain structure play a role in the tensile strength of a hidden-tang knife? Wayne Goddard says in his books that a combat-quality knife needs to be stainless, hidden tang, with a hefty threaded bolt silver brazed to the tang and a good butt cap (forgive me for the simplified terms; I have read the books, and I assume many of the forum members have done likewise). Goddard's butt-cap serves mostly as something to hammer against, and the need for that depends on -- as you say -- how you plan to use the knife.

So, for tang strength on a hidden tang knife, we are dealing more with tensile strength than with the bend strength that comes with the heat treat on an ABS master-smith test knife. Regardless of how a maker secures a hidden-tang to a handle, the real question is whether grain structure the same role in the tensile strength of a hidden tang that it does in the bend strength of the blade itself.

If the grain structure plays a role (and correct me if I am wrong here), the maker get away with only heat-treating the blade. Otherwise, the maker should heat-treat the whole knife and draw the tang back to something pretty dang soft.

For my own sake, and for the sake of this thread, I would appreciate the information.

Thanks for your help!
 
“We only pick on Ed and Tai because they're famous.... and we're not.” Rick

You never cease to amaze me Rick, and there’s no doubt in my mind you will become equally “famous”, if you just stick with it and drop the conventional metallurgy out of your rap. That rap has already been taken.

“or I could be wrong.…” Rick

Pure genius dude! :)
 
I quenched my first 1084 knife into some 130 degree canola in a metal bucket, I used a big thermometer stuck in the bucket, to heat it up I held a map gas torch against the side of the bucket. I got it to 140, and it declined toward 130 by the time I stuck my blade in. I got the blade to non magnetic, and then heated it up till it got a little bit more reddish orange. I pulled it out and dipped it straight in the oil blade first and held it there. I didn't more it around just tried to hold it still. No cracks that I can see, too bad my phone doesn't like uploading pics to my comp anymore. I didn't clean off the black stuff (sorry forgot the name, maybe pitting?) I just put it in the toaster oven at 350 for two hours to temper. I put the final grind on it yesterday. It's looking good so far.
 
Seth: I have no experience with A-2, it will be up to you to test your tangs.

I don't know the context to which Wayne suggested stainless steel, if I was going into combat my blade would be 52100.

I have never tested a tang that did not have a large rate of longitudinal reduction in its development so I can't comment on the strength of the grain structure of a tang that had the grain running perpendicular to the blade.

I have tested a number of Frank Richtig's blades and am told he made his blades with out regard to grain flow and I have never seen one of his blades broken at the handle. His heat treat was more sophisticated than most realize therefor I feel you could get around grain flow, but you are pretty much on your own and I sure hope you do some experimenting with your steel and methods and report your results back to the rest of the knife community. No matter what the theories dictate we still have a lot to learn.

This summer we tested the tang of one of our test blades, put about an inch of the tang into a vice and pounded it over to a sharp 90 degree bend, then put it on an anvil and flattened it back over the rest of the tang with a forging hammer it folded clean with no tears and took a lot of force to bend it. This was done cold, the steel had been annealed at 988 f. for two hours, three times in three days. When we hardened the blade the tang never got hot enough to allow it to harden. After three edge quenches (blade only heated to above critical) the blade including the tang had been tempered at 388 f. three times. I don't have a Rockwell tester but feel the tang was close to dead soft.

Any time you harden a piece of steel, the memory of that thermal cycle will remain in the steel. For this reason I never harden a tang. In my opinion, trying to temper a tang that has been hardened only provides a greater opportunity for failure. At one time we experimented hardening the entire blade (rather than just the lower 1/3) on the first two quenches, then only edge hardened on the third quench. The blade broke catastrophically into two pieces on the first 90 degree flex. Theoretically speaking one would figure the third quench where the spine was not heated to critical temp would have softened the spine adequately, but it did not.

Your choice of handle material has a lot to do with the strength of the tang in the handle. It is what I would call a complimentary issue. Strong handle material will allow you to get away with a tang of less mass (strength) than weaker handle material. For example (not trying to be self serving but it is what I use) our sheep horn is very strong, grain direction in sheep horn does not seem to be significant. I have never used a stronger or tougher handle material (metal handles excluded) and this is one of the reasons we use sheep horn. Once we acraglass a sheep horn handle onto a blade you can't beat it off with a hammer, the only way you can get it off is to either saw or grind it off. I have a knife that I used for about 8 years, I used it hard, chopped river ice at -20f and pounded on the spine of the blade with rocks and hammers, the handle is as solid today as it was the day I made it. I can drop that knife handle first onto a cement floor and it just bounces. I have done this demonstration numerous times at shows and in my shop without obvious damage to the horn.

Many years ago I made a bone handle for a knife for a friend, he dropped it while hunting, the butt of the handle hit a rock and chipped, he had to field dress and bone two elk with that knife, the palm of his had looked like it hand suffered greatly as the chip left very sharp edges on the butt of the handle. I put a sheep horn cap on the butt of the handle and he is still using it.

A good friend went into and still is making production knives with hidden tangs, one of the problems he had to solve was that the entire blade and tang were hardened, he had a threaded butt screw and recessed bushing with a nut in the back of the wood and stag handles, he was getting blades back broken at the tang. They started induction tempering the tangs up to the area of blade and that helped, but did not solve the problem. They tried torquing the screws tighter and that did not solve the problem.

Caps on more fragile handle materials such as bone, antler and some woods are a good idea, if they are put on right. Crown antler handles seem to hold up better than cut pieces at the butt.

The ability to pound on the butt of a handle to drive the tip of the blade into material is a very real need at times, I like smooth rounded handle butts as they are easier on my hands.

I feel lateral strength is a very real need in a knife. You may be making a knife for client who claims he will never "abuse" the knife. But you never know what circumstances are in his future, or in the future of the next person who owns the knife should he sell it or pass it down to another. For this reason I make every knife with the same considerations because my mark is on it.

Please never be bashful about asking me questions or questioning what I write, I have spent a life time seeking answers and continue to do so and appreciate the opportunity to share what I feel I have learned. Discussions such as this are of benefit to our community, at least that is my hope.

If I have not answered your question, please ask again. But I urge you to try these ideas with your steel, your designs and in your shop you will only know for sure through your own experience.
 
I quenched my first 1084 knife into some 130 degree canola in a metal bucket, I used a big thermometer stuck in the bucket, to heat it up I held a map gas torch against the side of the bucket. I got it to 140, and it declined toward 130 by the time I stuck my blade in. I got the blade to non magnetic, and then heated it up till it got a little bit more reddish orange. I pulled it out and dipped it straight in the oil blade first and held it there. I didn't more it around just tried to hold it still. No cracks that I can see, too bad my phone doesn't like uploading pics to my comp anymore. I didn't clean off the black stuff (sorry forgot the name, maybe pitting?) I just put it in the toaster oven at 350 for two hours to temper. I put the final grind on it yesterday. It's looking good so far.

Sounds good so far, personally I would have tempered at 400 for two hours, but toaster ovens are not all that accurate so I would not be surprised if the temperature actually ranged through 400. I would like to see a picture of your blade so that I can give you relevant advice specific to your design and what I see

-Page
 
:eek:Don't do it Chris. Page will have you sucking your thumb in the corner of your kitchen, by the time he is done "relevently advicing" you.

Rick:p
 
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