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1086
- Thread starter strahd71
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- Jan 13, 2006
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Good stuff. I use mainly 10XX steels. Have yet to have a complaint. Very east to work and a simple heat-treat.
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- Oct 3, 2002
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Keith, 1084 is what's recommended here. 1085 and 1086 are different, main diff is
manganese content and it does make a big difference.
The 1086M I'm using is from Howard Clark, low Mn and a little vanadium.
Not sure what Kelly's 1086 is like.
manganese content and it does make a big difference.
The 1086M I'm using is from Howard Clark, low Mn and a little vanadium.
Not sure what Kelly's 1086 is like.
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2005
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- 834
I talked with Kelly about his 1086 a while ago. It has lower Mn, like in the 0.40% to 0.50% range. One way of looking at it is, it is lower carbon W1 (no tool steel spec. on Kelly's batch chemistry, though). The other way is the Heat Treaters Guide description
"Standard steel grade for wire rod and wire only"
I don't know exactly what that means but the concrete tensioning cable Birdog4 has is of identical chemistry and both extra-extra improved plow steel and extra-extra-extra improved plow steel for wire rope are this chemistry (give or take a little... you know?).
In damascus, it will etch lighter than 1084 and might be it won't make a hamon like a lower Mn type would. I don't know what difference in HT there would be from 1084. Don would know a lot more about both the hamon and HT.
Mike
"Standard steel grade for wire rod and wire only"
I don't know exactly what that means but the concrete tensioning cable Birdog4 has is of identical chemistry and both extra-extra improved plow steel and extra-extra-extra improved plow steel for wire rope are this chemistry (give or take a little... you know?).
In damascus, it will etch lighter than 1084 and might be it won't make a hamon like a lower Mn type would. I don't know what difference in HT there would be from 1084. Don would know a lot more about both the hamon and HT.
Mike
Last edited:
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- Jun 23, 2006
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- 2,418
1086 will make a fine knife for most of your needs. If you want something that is used in heavy chopping, 5160 might be a better choice from the "simple" alloys.
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- Jul 20, 2007
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oh, I thought that 10 series denoted a simple carbon steel, and that the last two digits were the points of carbon.
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith
ilmarinen - MODERATOR
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Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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Pretty much any of the 108X series steels will work about the same for a knife. There are many slight differences in formulations, but 1080,1084,1085,1086 are pretty much the same under the hammer and in the oven.
The 10 denotes that it is a simple carbon steel, the next two numbers are the decimal carbon percentage rating. Understand that the actual carbon percentage may be higher or lower for the same steel grade, depending on manufacturer and use of the steel. Thus 1084,1085,1086 is the usual designation used by many for the whole group. A letter after the 10XX ,such as M, is a suffix that designates a specific alloy blend for a use - such as Machining, Forging, Fine Grain, Modified,etc.
A little manganese allows the grain to be refined, and helps in quenching.Thus, most steels we use have some small amount ( less than 1%) of manganese.
While on this subject ,I would like to point out to any newer makers that the carbon content in steel is in hundredths of a percent. 1084 is .84% carbon, not 84% carbon.It is often said as "84 points of carbon" or "point 84 carbon". It only takes a tiny bit of carbon to interface with all that iron to make the structure we call Martensite ( which is what our blades are made from). The miscellaneous alloy ingredients( manganese, silicon, sulfur, etc.) are usually far greater than the prime alloy - carbon. There is no reason to exceed the amount of carbon needed to fill up all the spaces in the iron matrix, which is .84% carbon. A little more has certain advantages in making a slightly harder blade, but 1.00% carbon is about the usable maximum for simple carbon steels.Get much higher, and the steel won't make a knife.A little lower than the eutectiod (.84% carbon) and it will be tougher, but not as hard. Thus .60% carbon is about the practical lower carbon content for knives.
So, you see, that a change of +/- .15% in the carbon from the "perfect" ratio of .84% carbon is the whole range for knives (in simple steels). Talk about close tolerances. This is why many of us try to explain and encourage new makers to treat the steel with the best methods. Burn out a little carbon in the working of the steel, and it may not make a good blade.
Stainless steels have much more alloy ingredients, and thus often have higher carbon content, but stainless metallurgy is far more complex than simple carbon steels are.
Stacy
The 10 denotes that it is a simple carbon steel, the next two numbers are the decimal carbon percentage rating. Understand that the actual carbon percentage may be higher or lower for the same steel grade, depending on manufacturer and use of the steel. Thus 1084,1085,1086 is the usual designation used by many for the whole group. A letter after the 10XX ,such as M, is a suffix that designates a specific alloy blend for a use - such as Machining, Forging, Fine Grain, Modified,etc.
A little manganese allows the grain to be refined, and helps in quenching.Thus, most steels we use have some small amount ( less than 1%) of manganese.
While on this subject ,I would like to point out to any newer makers that the carbon content in steel is in hundredths of a percent. 1084 is .84% carbon, not 84% carbon.It is often said as "84 points of carbon" or "point 84 carbon". It only takes a tiny bit of carbon to interface with all that iron to make the structure we call Martensite ( which is what our blades are made from). The miscellaneous alloy ingredients( manganese, silicon, sulfur, etc.) are usually far greater than the prime alloy - carbon. There is no reason to exceed the amount of carbon needed to fill up all the spaces in the iron matrix, which is .84% carbon. A little more has certain advantages in making a slightly harder blade, but 1.00% carbon is about the usable maximum for simple carbon steels.Get much higher, and the steel won't make a knife.A little lower than the eutectiod (.84% carbon) and it will be tougher, but not as hard. Thus .60% carbon is about the practical lower carbon content for knives.
So, you see, that a change of +/- .15% in the carbon from the "perfect" ratio of .84% carbon is the whole range for knives (in simple steels). Talk about close tolerances. This is why many of us try to explain and encourage new makers to treat the steel with the best methods. Burn out a little carbon in the working of the steel, and it may not make a good blade.
Stainless steels have much more alloy ingredients, and thus often have higher carbon content, but stainless metallurgy is far more complex than simple carbon steels are.
Stacy
Last edited:
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- Oct 3, 2002
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- 12,297
Very good info, Stacy and Mete. Like said, HT will be the about same for all the 1080s'.
Steels with lower manganese (below .50%), like 1086, 1095, W1, W2 are shallow
hardening and best for producing hamon. Also needs a faster quench oil.
Steels with higher Mn (above .50%) like 1080, 1084 (Mn .90%+/-) are deeper hardening
and more difficult to get hamon. Will also etch much darker in damascus. For some odd
reason 1085 falls somewhere in the middle but can also have MN at the higher end.
The added vanadium (.18% -.25%) in 1086M and W2 retard grain growth, promote fine
grain, help in hardening and add to edge holding.
Steels with lower manganese (below .50%), like 1086, 1095, W1, W2 are shallow
hardening and best for producing hamon. Also needs a faster quench oil.
Steels with higher Mn (above .50%) like 1080, 1084 (Mn .90%+/-) are deeper hardening
and more difficult to get hamon. Will also etch much darker in damascus. For some odd
reason 1085 falls somewhere in the middle but can also have MN at the higher end.
The added vanadium (.18% -.25%) in 1086M and W2 retard grain growth, promote fine
grain, help in hardening and add to edge holding.
