1095 - NOT FORGED -- but I'm worried (it's not another debate, honestly)

J

jimgb07

Joined
Aug 5, 2010
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Hey all,
Been away a long time.
I'm finally coming back to blades just as a hobby once I get the shop built.
But it's gonna be back to the crude days of making for me :D

Stock removal, files, grinder and paper.
I like 5/32" thick or so blades, 1.25" wide and about 9 inch total length.

Hardening is a Small Propylene Torch (maybe make a tin-can oven with some oven cement lining it) - Quenched in either Transmission or Canola Oil.
Tempering is my torch running across the spine til blue, and the blade edge is Straw, then an hour at 400 in the kitchen oven.

So...Knowing all this:

I have 2 Economical choices: 1) 1084 or 2) 1095

I've read horror stories getting 1095 to work, but only as a forged blade. But then read it's a wonderful metal that comes off nice.
I guess 1084 works much like O1 tool which I've used in the past.

1084 is at 1/8" thick (it may be supplied .139") -- little concerned this will be thin for me.
1095 comes 5/32 (it may be supplied .17)

1095 comes more close to the sizing I love.
1095 comes with many horror stories.

FOR MY SET UP -- what recommendations would you all give for stock to buy ?

Thank you ! I need to buy ASAP.

Jim
 
With your setup, I would go with 1084 myself. Both are still thin, shouldn't be a problem.
And you know what they say, thin is in. :D
 
Aldo's 1084. 1095 needs a little more control than you have in your setup, do not use transmission fluid.If you are not going to use a commercial quench oil use canola preheated to 130f

-Page
 
This is great. Thanks all.
I'm actually in Nova Scotia --- eastern Canada. We got a great supplier in BC (other end of the country, but good shipping).
I had bought some 1084 1/8", but that stock was undersize... about 0.118" - I just can't use it by the time you grind off the surface and sand it all down.
I like a finished- 5/32" Maybe I'm too particular but I even find 3/16 too thick, but 5/32 appealing. (Maybe I'm just lazy with thicker stock, haha).

I loved that the 1095 was between .15 and .17, but..... probably not worth the extra hassle.
I'm really missing my propane forge now.

Jim
 
@Page
Mate, I've never heated my oils. When I was full time blade-making, I used fish oil (actual plant waste). In the winter it would be paste, in the summer, room temp. Quenched everything from skinners to swords in it. Never a prob -- hard as rock without cracking.

Jim
 
jimgb07 said:
@Page
Mate, I've never heated my oils. When I was full time blade-making, I used fish oil (actual plant waste). In the winter it would be paste, in the summer, room temp. Quenched everything from skinners to swords in it. Never a prob -- hard as rock without cracking.

Jim
Click to expand...

How hard did they get?
 
Well crap! I just sold my house to buy a gallon of 100% Pasturized Unicorn Urine, and now I've got to find fish oil too!!!
 
I dont have a gauge, but, a file rang across the blade like thick glass. I mean, it was like trying to mark a file, and gave that sound only a rock hard piece of metal can give, you know?
 
To answer your questions...

I'd get 1084. One of the reasons 1095 is known as tough to work with is the quench time is very fast, if the quench isn't performed properly the blade won't harden the right way. Either steel should be easy to work with, Aldo's 1084 is especially soft in the annealed state.

The 1084 is made to high specs, I'd compare it to a tool steel. 1095 can have more variation, it is great steel also. Either one will make a great blade if the heat treat is done correctly. 1084 can be quenched in Canola oil which is a big bonus.

Different steels need different quench times, that is very important to keep in mind when making your steel selection.

I work with a variety of steels and have 11 second oil, 28 second oil, aluminum plates for air quenching. Yesterday I used brine because I needed a faster quench than my 11 second oil could offer.

The 11 second oil is great for 1084 but is a little too fast for O1, for that I use my 28 second oil. When working with S7 I plate quench but an air quench is fine for thinner sections and I could use my 28 second oil for a really thick section and be OK. If I were brine quenching I'd be worried about fracture with a 1/16" thick piece of W2 but with a 3" thick section I may worry it wouldn't through harden.
 
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Thanks Daniel.
Yeah, few years ago there wasn't a lot of talk of specific quench times.
I've always just heated the finished blade up to cherry red for a couple minutes and dropped it blade edge fist into the oil until it was cool.
 
I said 1084 because it is a great steel with simple heat treat. 1095 can be hardened by your means, is cheap and by not forging, you are less susceptible to the woes of hypereutectoid steel. It benefits from more controlled methods but will still work for you. I would ditch the transmission fluid for the canola, hands down. Heat the oil... it will only make your results better(There should be no debate here, it's just straight forward physics/thermal conductivity).
 
Hey Rick.
Sorry to ask a newbie question (especially after the number of years I was a maker...) Why heated oil? Would it not cool faster if not heated?
And really, with my setup, you think I can still choose between the two metals?
Doing stock, and in oil with only a torch to heat-- what would you say I need to do to make sure 1095 works?
Like I say, I used to just cherry red the steel and drop in the oil til cool.

respects !

(is it just me or did this forum get realllly technical in 2 years, haha)
 
jimgb07 said:
Sorry to ask a newbie question (especially after the number of years I was a maker...) Why heated oil? Would it not cool faster if not heated?
Click to expand...
Some great answers are in this thread. I could paraphrase but there is much more to learn in this link... http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/639019-The-process-and-priciples-of-quenching
jimgb07 said:
And really, with my setup, you think I can still choose between the two metals?
Click to expand...
You always have the choice. It is really has more to do with what your expectations are.
jimgb07 said:
Doing stock, and in oil with only a torch to heat-- what would you say I need to do to make sure 1095 works?
Like I say, I used to just cherry red the steel and drop in the oil til cool.
Click to expand...
Find someone who makes knives that have the properties you look for and uses the same method you use(I don't) and pick their brain. If you do not intend on changing your HT method than there is no sense in me trying to convince you otherwise.
jimgb07 said:
(is it just me or did this forum get realllly technical in 2 years, haha)
Click to expand...
I think it is becoming more aware and a bit disillusioned.
 
Colder oil will be thicker, so when you heat it to around 130 degrees F, it becomes more viscous, and actually cools the blade faster.

You can try using 1095, but to get good results with it you have to be very precise about your temperature (and also you need a very fast quench). If you are eyeballing the temperature, 1084 will be more forgiving and still give good results.
 
Rick, Don, thanks. I got it. Sticking with 1084, and will look into heating the oil.

Rick, yeah, my means only allows a "Value Meal" set up these days. And honestly, it's when it was the funnest for me, so not really a matter of convincing me, it's more a matter of buying groceries or better set-up, hahaha.

Seriously though, looking forward to it - and thanks all for clarifying things for me.

Jim
 
jimgb07 said:
Rick, yeah, my means only allows a "Value Meal" set up these days. And honestly, it's when it was the funnest for me, so not really a matter of convincing me, it's more a matter of buying groceries or better set-up, hahaha.
Click to expand...
There is no necessity to change what you are doing if it fulfills your expectations and (more importantly) you are having fun. Just be honest to yourself, your craft and your customer. If eyeballing your HT in a coal forge and quenching in whale blubber makes it all worth while for you... rock on. Just don't go claiming some kind of enhanced performance properties that the coal dust infused beluga fat imparts. ha!
 
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