1095 (produced by stock-removal by a company) is OVER-PRICED!!!!!

[cbach8tw]

There are some manufacturers who I think charge way too much for their products, especially when some of their production methods may not be what I consider up to standards, maybe questionable heat treatment, fit and finish or quality control issues. 1095 is a good steel, it depends on what the company does with that steel, the quality of the product they produce, and their attention to detail that helps determine the price they feel is fair. Matt Lesniewski of ML knives uses 1095 almost excluvisely, the time and effort he puts into making his knives reflect the price of a custom maker. I would not expect Condor knives (mostly 1075), who makes decent products for a fair price to be of the same quality of a custom maker, comparing apples to oranges. Or maybe more relevant, ESEE knives, I would pay more for the 3 or 4 knowing how they make their knives.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

In this day and age of internet sales, and instant comparisons, MSRP doesn't even mean that much. Same for any other pricing from the manufacturers side of things, MAP, or not. Especially to anyone not shopping on a US dollar. Local stock here depends on the exchange rate the day the items were ordered by the store, or worse, whatever profit estimate guessed at by a drop-shipper. Add to that single point of import in some places (Zen does good work here, and I'm happy for work they have done in australia regarding rules, but they do have a monopoly) A lot of Europe looked to be the same, with several storefronts I saw packed with your standard batch of fakes, and even comparing Euro prices some things were way out of whack, and many within a dollar of US street price.

Do I have a problem with a mattress store method of pricing? Sure, but that is a different discussion. And one can always find flaw with one or another of a companies policies, or its corporate culture. At the end of the day there is plenty of good, cheap 1095 on the market for those who want that, and there are plenty of artists for those who prefer art. To me complaining about $200 1095 is the same a complaining that the boutique super-car you want to buy has an engine from toyota, or honda, if you don't like it, go buy one from someone else.

I think MSRP means something, but mostly as a benchmark of where various retailers are discounting from and an indicator of the relative bracket that it sits in price-wise since there are industry conventions that guide the relationship between dealer pricing and MSRP. It makes it easier to compare different manufacturer's knives that way so you aren't accidentally comparing the relative value of a low end knife being sold by a gouger to a high end one being sold by a cut-rate volume seller. The fixed frame of reference is handy for that, even if actual sale price is variable.

 

[Natlek]

raw material cost doesn't directly correspond to finished product cost.

so don't use the cost of a pile of dirt to estimate the value of what was made from it.

There is more to a knife then just the steel and this is coming from one of the biggest steel nerds around.

I agree with you , for 10 $ you can bye 310mm x 30mm x 3mm 18% tungsten HSS steel

 

[Natlek]

No best steel in the world, only the best steel for particular use.

Y? Will you buy a S110V survival knife? At least I wont, because I cant sharp it in the wild without equipment.

Or you want a ZDP-189 Machetes? No, it gonna be fractured or chipping very quick.

For 1095, yes, it is not even a good steel on the paper in 2017. But I will choose it as my survival knife steel.

As a survival knife, I am ery happy to pay 200 or even more to make me alive.

Yes , I will buy a S110V survival knife .May I ask you how long you plan to stay in the wild so that you must sharp it ? What can not do knive in wild when is no longer shave sharp ?

 

[jdm61]

"Street" price for most knives tends to be 70-80% of listed MSRP. Even then,some of the ESEE knives are in the $170-180 range and TOPS have several models that sell for over $200 even discounted. Using those numbers, distributor, wholesaler and retailer all gross around 15% of MSRP using the 45%/60%/75% formula.

Street price from a reputable dealer is never that. You know that. Just pointing it out for those that might not.

 

[jdm61]

"MSRP" matters for custom and semi-custom makers because they generally don't have an MSRP. They have a sales price. For them go though dealers requires that they discount, typically 25-30%.

In this day and age of internet sales, and instant comparisons, MSRP doesn't even mean that much. Same for any other pricing from the manufacturers side of things, MAP, or not. Especially to anyone not shopping on a US dollar. Local stock here depends on the exchange rate the day the items were ordered by the store, or worse, whatever profit estimate guessed at by a drop-shipper. Add to that single point of import in some places (Zen does good work here, and I'm happy for work they have done in australia regarding rules, but they do have a monopoly) A lot of Europe looked to be the same, with several storefronts I saw packed with your standard batch of fakes, and even comparing Euro prices some things were way out of whack, and many within a dollar of US street price.

Do I have a problem with a mattress store method of pricing? Sure, but that is a different discussion. And one can always find flaw with one or another of a companies policies, or its corporate culture. At the end of the day there is plenty of good, cheap 1095 on the market for those who want that, and there are plenty of artists for those who prefer art. To me complaining about $200 1095 is the same a complaining that the boutique super-car you want to buy has an engine from toyota, or honda, if you don't like it, go buy one from someone else.

 

[Ladams19]

Here is my two cents on this. I am a new maker. I do not sell anything per say. Everything is word of mouth and I am not actively seeking orders. I do this more or less as a hobby and the satisfaction of the blade I hold in my hand. None the less I have an order I am making for a customer. He wants and EDC Cleaver. Now he wants its spine at .25 and I am using 1095 to help keep the costs down. I am using a TAP controller Evenheat oven to heat treat. Now even though the steel is a lesser expensive type. I spend hours on the heat treat (from cold oven to finished heat treated blade), hours on the temper, several hours on the grind and well as a half of a day polishing and fitting the handles. Once the handles are drilled, fitted, polished and triple checked I go over it all again with a magnifying glass to make sure there are no marks on anything (I'm a perfectionists). Now lets not forget the time to tape up the blade and make a kydex sheath. I have a major brand kydex press, a toaster oven to heat and I use a heat gun on the edges. Also lets throw in at least 2 belts minumum, wear and tear on machinery, drill bits, a small pile of sand paper, a half sheet of kydex and parts, and the best part of a weekend spent making it. At $200 its not such a bad price to be honest. The steel will only change the price of the knife another $20 to $100 at the some of the best steels out there. The rest is all time. I recommend getting a set of files and spend the time setting up jigs to grind one out by hand and just see how long it really takes to do stock removal. Now if they have a CNC machine to do most of the work for them, just a basic CNC like they use is in the range of $15,000 to $50,000 for some that I have seen. I am sure there are some out there that are crazy expensive but do a great job. Having a big machine like that actually saves the consumer money over the long term because the price per blade can be made a bit cheaper by cutting out the hand labor involved in the grind. But you have to pay someone to program the CNC code in and run several batches of screw ups until the quality is there. So in summation, $200 for a stock removal 1095 is a steal for a hand made one, its not a bad price for a well fitted CNC stock removal knife. Just my two cents worth. I am taking a quick break to write this while my oven heats up. I needed a break, back is killing me lol. Now I am in no ways the fastest at making a knife. I have a disability and I have learned to work around it but it still takes some extra time. I still could not see it being done but a few hours faster at best. Unless the knife is an unfinished blade, with rough handles and no polish, then yes $200 might be on the high side. Not many makers sell knives like that. Some of the nicest blades I have been displayed in these forums take months to make but they are works of art and are on another playing field altogether.

From what I understand about knife steels, the 10**s are the easiest to blank, grind, temper, etc...AND produce!

AM I CORRECT ON THIS???
I see so many knife companies, new and old, making it out like this 1095 is wonder steel!!! IT ISN'T!!! Is it an excellent steel? Hell yes! Is it worth paying $200 for from ANY company that does stock-removal, "special" heat treat or not????

Seriously. Somebody make me believe.

 

[palonej]

Great post Dale!! If that doesn't open some eyes, nothing will.
I run into this stuff all the time in my field also.
It is simple for my customers to find out just about what parts cost me.
For example an expansion valve. Cost is roughly $50 - $85 for an avg size home central AC unit.
No one will install one for less than $500. Most will be closer to $750 and up.
There is a ton of labor and tons of tools needed. Along with some hard learned knowledge!
Most customers will lose their minds when all they see is cost of the part. It's only a small percentage of the total installation.
Thinking like the OP, I should just mark up the valve 30%, right??
Same thing with the steel used in the construction of a knife. I don't care if you get the steel for a blade for free......does that mean just give the finished product away?? Don't think so.
Joe

 

[jdm61]

The OP mentioned that 10XX steel are the easiest (and cheapest) to black, gird "temper" etc. Yes and no. 1095 is finicky in the heat treatment because it is a shallow hardening, hypereutectoid steel. if someone died and left me a knife manufacturing company that was big enough to be able to get what they wanted from the steel mills, I would probably try to get big 3/16 thick sheets or rolls of common "music wire" steel for my inexpensive carbon knives. Music wire steel is code for 1085. On any knife suitable for that steel, i would use the good old 1500/400 heat treatment regimen and send the blades out at 60-61Rc and not lose a minute's sleep about it being "too hard."

 

[craytab]

"Street" price for most knives tends to be 70-80% of listed MSRP. Even then,some of the ESEE knives are in the $170-180 range and TOPS have several models that sell for over $200 even discounted. Using those numbers, distributor, wholesaler and retailer all gross around 15% of MSRP using the 45%/60%/75% formula.

Not standard models. Special stuff with different coatings and/or handles, sure. Junglas is $155 shipped and looks to be the most expensive standard model knife. In fact, the price has gone down since I got mine years ago from the same dealer at $160.

 

[jdm61]

I have seen them on Amazon for as low as $149 which is half of the MSRP of $292. That makes me wonder ESSE is selling directly to these online retailers, perhaps at distributor prices and not wholesale. The internet and these specialty cutlery manufacturers have kind of changed the traditional knife "supply chain" model. One could almost say that Amazon is the "retailer" because my understanding is that they charge some pretty significant fees for letting you sell on their website.

Not standard models. Special stuff with different coatings and/or handles, sure. Junglas is $155 shipped and looks to be the most expensive standard model knife. In fact, the price has gone down since I got mine years ago from the same dealer at $160.

 

[craytab]

I have seen them on Amazon for as low as $149 which is half of the MSRP of $292. That makes me wonder ESSE is selling directly to these online retailers, perhaps at distributor prices and not wholesale. The internet and these specialty cutlery manufacturers have kind of changed the traditional knife "supply chain" model. One could almost say that Amazon is the "retailer" because my understanding is that they charge some pretty significant fees for letting you sell on their website.

That's interesting. Knifeconnection is where I got all of my new Esees and I always considered them the lowest price available. I think they have a special relationship though because of all the handles they do.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

I have seen them on Amazon for as low as $149 which is half of the MSRP of $292. That makes me wonder ESSE is selling directly to these online retailers, perhaps at distributor prices and not wholesale. The internet and these specialty cutlery manufacturers have kind of changed the traditional knife "supply chain" model. One could almost say that Amazon is the "retailer" because my understanding is that they charge some pretty significant fees for letting you sell on their website.

They're quite possibly fakes. The ESEE crew actually actively discourages selling or buying their knives on Amazon because of the way their inventory system allows fakes to infiltrate with little ability to backtrace. Many reports of folks receiving clones. A lot of the time it's noticeable because all of them have the same serial number instead of each one being unique.

 

[The_Iron_Joe]

Here is my two cents on this. I am a new maker. I do not sell anything per say. Everything is word of mouth and I am not actively seeking orders. I do this more or less as a hobby and the satisfaction of the blade I hold in my hand. None the less I have an order I am making for a customer. He wants and EDC Cleaver. Now he wants its spine at .25 and I am using 1095 to help keep the costs down. I am using a TAP controller Evenheat oven to heat treat. Now even though the steel is a lesser expensive type. I spend hours on the heat treat (from cold oven to finished heat treated blade), hours on the temper, several hours on the grind and well as a half of a day polishing and fitting the handles. Once the handles are drilled, fitted, polished and triple checked I go over it all again with a magnifying glass to make sure there are no marks on anything (I'm a perfectionists). Now lets not forget the time to tape up the blade and make a kydex sheath. I have a major brand kydex press, a toaster oven to heat and I use a heat gun on the edges. Also lets throw in at least 2 belts minumum, wear and tear on machinery, drill bits, a small pile of sand paper, a half sheet of kydex and parts, and the best part of a weekend spent making it. At $200 its not such a bad price to be honest. The steel will only change the price of the knife another $20 to $100 at the some of the best steels out there. The rest is all time. I recommend getting a set of files and spend the time setting up jigs to grind one out by hand and just see how long it really takes to do stock removal. Now if they have a CNC machine to do most of the work for them, just a basic CNC like they use is in the range of $15,000 to $50,000 for some that I have seen. I am sure there are some out there that are crazy expensive but do a great job. Having a big machine like that actually saves the consumer money over the long term because the price per blade can be made a bit cheaper by cutting out the hand labor involved in the grind. But you have to pay someone to program the CNC code in and run several batches of screw ups until the quality is there. So in summation, $200 for a stock removal 1095 is a steal for a hand made one, its not a bad price for a well fitted CNC stock removal knife. Just my two cents worth. I am taking a quick break to write this while my oven heats up. I needed a break, back is killing me lol. Now I am in no ways the fastest at making a knife. I have a disability and I have learned to work around it but it still takes some extra time. I still could not see it being done but a few hours faster at best. Unless the knife is an unfinished blade, with rough handles and no polish, then yes $200 might be on the high side. Not many makers sell knives like that. Some of the nicest blades I have been displayed in these forums take months to make but they are works of art and are on another playing field altogether.

Another new maker chiming in! I've not been making blades for a long time, but I thought I should throw my opinion in as I am one of those guys you mentioned, making knives on a CNC.

You're quite right, it's a lot easier to physically shape the steel in the way that I want, and with far greater precision than what I can do by hand, and this does lower the end cost of a knife made for the customer! However, this is only true for patterns I already have digitally modeled in 3D and have made programming for, as well as work holding and tool optimization figured out. So if someone orders a brand new custom, it's still usually costly to produce, especially when prototyping is necessary. There is quite a bit of time spent going back and forth with design drawings and mockups with the customer, to make sure we both agree on the design before going forward, then building it digitally before doing a final check.

There are also additional costs associated with running a CNC mill, namely your material usage for fixtures, the end mill bits that dull and wear down over time, the cost of electricity to run the mill, the air compressor, coolant pump... there are a lot of things that need to be paid up! It's also common, although by no means the rule for every case, for people to have bought their equipment on a loan. In my case, I'm also paying back the people who enabled me to have such equipment in the first place, to which I am very thankful for having given me such an opportunity!

So for instance, while S30V is more expensive than 1095 (in fact, about 80% more expensive for me!), a great deal of the cost is determined by the work that goes into the making of the knife, rather than what it's made of, and this should not be so easily discounted when considering final cost.

 

[jdm61]

Not sure where you are getting 1095, but from our suppliers, S30V a LOT more per pound the 1095. You can buy a 1.5 x 3/16 x 72 bar of HR 1095 from Admiral for around $19. A big producer like an Ontario could get it for a fair bit less, I would think. The same amount of S30V from Aldo, who is a bit cheaper on the Crucible stuff, would cost you $160-200 depending whether or not you wanted the decarb ground off.. If the average full tang hunting or bushcraft blade would use like 9 inches of steel, that is the difference between $2.40 or so per blade and $21-25 in raw material cost alone. 5160 is about $5 more per 72 inches than 1095 or about 60 cents per blade. 52100 flat bar of the same size from Aldo would run you $42. 80CrV2 would be about the same, maybe a couple of bucks more. Do you wonder why these companies use 1095?

Another new maker chiming in! I've not been making blades for a long time, but I thought I should throw my opinion in as I am one of those guys you mentioned, making knives on a CNC.

You're quite right, it's a lot easier to physically shape the steel in the way that I want, and with far greater precision than what I can do by hand, and this does lower the end cost of a knife made for the customer! However, this is only true for patterns I already have digitally modeled in 3D and have made programming for, as well as work holding and tool optimization figured out. So if someone orders a brand new custom, it's still usually costly to produce, especially when prototyping is necessary. There is quite a bit of time spent going back and forth with design drawings and mockups with the customer, to make sure we both agree on the design before going forward, then building it digitally before doing a final check.

There are also additional costs associated with running a CNC mill, namely your material usage for fixtures, the end mill bits that dull and wear down over time, the cost of electricity to run the mill, the air compressor, coolant pump... there are a lot of things that need to be paid up! It's also common, although by no means the rule for every case, for people to have bought their equipment on a loan. In my case, I'm also paying back the people who enabled me to have such equipment in the first place, to which I am very thankful for having given me such an opportunity!

So for instance, while S30V is more expensive than 1095 (in fact, about 80% more expensive for me!), a great deal of the cost is determined by the work that goes into the making of the knife, rather than what it's made of, and this should not be so easily discounted when considering final cost.

 

[The_Iron_Joe]

Not sure where you are getting 1095, but from our suppliers, S30V a LOT more per pound the 1095. You can buy a 1.5 x 3/16 x 72 bar of HR 1095 from Admiral for around $19. A big producer like an Ontario could get it for a fair bit less, I would think. The same amount of S30V from Aldo, who is a bit cheaper on the Crucible stuff, would cost you $160-200 depending whether or not you wanted the decarb ground off.. If the average full tang hunting or bushcraft blade would use like 9 inches of steel, that is the difference between $2.40 or so per blade and $21-25 in raw material cost alone. 5160 is about $5 more per 72 inches than 1095 or about 60 cents per blade. 52100 flat bar of the same size from Aldo would run you $42. 80CrV2 would be about the same, maybe a couple of bucks more. Do you wonder why these companies use 1095?

My cost for 1095 is about $1.25 per inch, vs about $4 per inch for S30V. Part of that could be that I order from a Canadian company who retails bar stock brought in (I think) exclusively from the USA. And I don't wonder too much!

 

[Larcivs Lepidvs]

Hi all,

I kinda/sorta understand (maybe) what is upsetting Dave. I very much like my 1095 Carbon Steel knives. In fact, I'd have to say that my 1095's are THE sharpest knives I own.

Truthfully, I can't believe (for instance) that "Old Hickory" has not come out with a line of Bushcraft/Hunting type Knives (with updated handles and blade shapes) that look something like this
modified (once broken/snapped in half/found in junk pile) "Old Hickory" Butcher Knife as modified by JKL Knives. I dear say, I bet "Old Hickory" would sell a ton of these knives in the fifty to
seventy five dollar price range.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-dtZhlUNuzOI/UxN6iAqkADI/AAAAAAAADxQ/p3Y8EZqqAp8/s1600/IMG_7766.jpg My modified "Old Hickory" 1095 Butcher Knife to Kephart style.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-QDKQbV5G4SM/UxN6zJXD68I/AAAAAAAADyE/Dq0a3djJA8Q/s1600/IMG_7775.jpg

HARDBALL

That looks awesome

 

[Thomas Linton]

A knife is worth what someone will voluntarily pay for it. That means "value" often varies according to the person expressing an opinion at to the value of the knife.

If it's too much according to your opinion of value, don't buy it and don't be bitter because you wanted it for less. Many other choices will come along.

ABOVE ALL, don't shop at eBay where pricing is equal parts knowledge of the market, WAG ignorance, and skulduggery-- and you might have a stroke at some of the opening values set.

Don't try to convince someone else to adopt your opinion. We all have better things to do with our time, including you.

 

[stabman]

People buy what they want. No one is forcing us to pay what we do; there is no conspiracy to sever us from our cash reserves.

Knives cost what people will pay, simple as that.

 

[jdm61]

But sometimes the question is WHY do they buy? In the knife world,we have our fair share of nonsensical hype that is oft times unencumbered by the facts and even stuff bordering on outright misrepresentation. Sometimes that line is crossed, but i am kind of limiting my discussion to "technical" claims as opposed to how someone's relatively unrelated life experiences, factual or fabricated, might uniquely qualify them to be a designer/manufacturer of cutlery. I sometimes read folk's backstory and then look at their products and ask if willallofthat on the ground experience, this was the best that they could come up with?