1095 Question

PlaceKnives

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Apr 7, 2003
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Hello,
I just got some 3/16" thick 1095 from Admiral Steel. Nice smooth finish, flat as a pancake, but really hard. On my bandsaw it cuts like stainless and when I grind on it I get a shower of sparks. I thought this stuff was annealed, am I right in guessing that it was not? Also, will it not being annealed affect the heat treat?
Should I tell I tell the guy who will be heat treating it that I suspect it was not annealed?
Thanks,
J. Place
 
The last order of 1095 I got from Admiral was annealed and it cut on the bandsaw (B-metal blade) OK but drilling was a real pain (1/4"). It will still spark when you grind it no matter what the hardness is.
 
I always do multiple cycles with the 1095 I have because it is a bit odd like yours....not quite full dead soft, and sometimes I find that its almost core-hardened. Many bits get half way through and squeal like crazy, i flip the bar and same from the other side. You could always try to anneal it or just deal with it as-is...
 
1095 sheared from sheet is not annealed but isn't HTed either. May have hard and soft spots through out. 1350 for an hour will make it very soft or just heating it up to a dull red with a torch will help.

If you want annealed then buy "cold-rolled and annealed" or "precision ground"
 
BFinnigan,

I don't know if this was the case with you, but I've had 1095 harden on me as I drill it. Run even your small bits very slowly and keep them very cool.

-d
 
I order from AS too and once I did receive a batch with very
hard exterior (blackish oxide). Had to grind it off and it was
very hard, but rather thin.

For drilling, you can always spot-anneal, with a BT, if you have a tougher batch
 
Yes I had the same thing happen, snapped two drill bits and I was going as slow as the drill press can be set and using oil. I was drilling 24 holes around a bowie tang and every hole had a different personality. And that blade was annealed after I forged it.
 
I cut it with a chop saw or a cutting disk in my angle grinder. It doesn't matter if there are hard spots or not. When drilling I use the slowest speed on my drill press and a lot of cutting oil. If you get it too hot you can spot harden it. I had this happen to me and had to re anneal the blade in order to finish drilling.
 
Jared

It seems like I remember Kevin Cashen commenting on this same subject a while ago. Hopefully he'll pop in and give an answer to this problem. I'd normallize it two or three times. That will probably solve the spot-hardness problem.

Just tell whoever does the heat treat to be sure to normallize it appropriately before the quenching heat to ensure a fine grain structure. It's possible to normallize 1095 so much that it's an extremely shallow hardening steel, with almost an impossible curve from nonmagnetic to hardening. I learned from Kevin Cashen's posts that you can use this fact to achieve a differentially hardened blade with a full quench.

What are you making with 1095? Have you got a heat treater lined up?
If it's not real big, you could heat treat it yourself with a minimum of equipment.

How are the new hatchet's coming?

Todd
 
How many times must it be said on this and other forums. Stay away from admiral. You never know what you will get, condition, quality, or for that matter, grade. They seem to make it up as they go along. It's doubtful that what you got was even 1095 in the first place. Just what "THEY" call 1095. They're spec sheet isn't on either. I can't believe that makers keep buying from a supplier who miss lables,and knowingly sells inferior products. Of course they are cheaper. Fake always is. Custom knife makers are suppose to make a superior product. We can not do this with inferior materials. Boot Admiral!!! Or have the balls to tell your customers that you use inferior materials on their knives to save a little money. Mike
 
first time I hear about Admiral to be avoided ! :(

What about their air-hardening variety - is it as bad ?
 
Mr. Place, will you be stock removing or forging this 1095?

1095 is a hypereutectoid, which means it has around .15% more carbon than can be handled by pearlite alone. The extra carbon will seperate out into carbide (cementite) sheets that are harder than any quenched steel (martensite) could get alone. Of all the simpler steels I have worked with 1095 has dulled or burned up more of my cutting tools than any other. Normalizing can only exacerbate the problem if not done very carefully.

I have a micrograph somewhere of a huge segregated cementite band running down the center of a piece of 1095 (coincidentally from Admiral, though I make no judgements either way there), however, I will give you folks a break from yet another one of my tired micrographs.

If one has a heavy segregation of cementite like this and heat the steel only to let it air cool or cool in wood ashes, what you will get is a bar of soft workable pearlite with a band of extremely hard cementite running through the middle. This will allow you to drill or saw just fine until you reach that zone and then the drill will squeek and the saw will have its teeth rounded over, appearing as if you somehow hardened the steel in the operation, but the mechanisms for this to occur are not typically possible under such conditions. If these bands are large enough they can increase the brittlness of your final work as the cementite will end up in your grain boundaries when the blade is hardened.

So I guess I should try to offer some ways to get rid of this. The best way I have found to get the stuff soft enough to drill and cut is to spheroidize it and avoid pearlite altogether, since it cannot handle the excess cementite. Spheroidizing will take all of the carbides and ball them up so they can be easily pushed aside.

How to get rid of the segregation to begin with is another factor, that will require plenty of heat and time, since it has to be done with diffusion. Here is one instance that forging can indeed improve the steel, but not in any of the silly ways normally touted by bladesmiths. Low temperature forging will not move this stuff, in order to get that carbon to disperse you will need it hot! Recommended forging temps for 1095 are as high as 2,100 F. and not below 1500 F. for industry, and whether the average smith wants to believe this there are reasons for this (and not just size).

If you start your forging at around 1900 F. to move the large cross sections, the cycling at these temperatures over Acm will allow that carbon to move around, don't worry about grain growth, it is one of the most fixable conditions in the steel and if your hammer blows are sufficient they will keep grains under control. By the time you get your edge, tip and other thin sections formed you should have lowered your temp to 1500 F. or below, finishing at below critical, not for any silly atom squeezing notions, but to smooth things out, reduce scale and to keep those thin sections from over heating. One old smith told me it was called hammer polishing (a much better term than some others that old smiths have cursed us with). But the initial recommended forging temperatures will have allowed you to move that carbon all round in ways that would not have been possible if you stayed too cool.

Next, normalize to even out and refine the grain and level out that carbon even more. Start out at or above 1500 F. to get all the grain an even size (forget about what the size is, just get it even for now) and then follow up with a few more cycles at lower temperatures to make the even structure finer. If you wnat to spheroidize quench it on the final cycle and temper it at 1300 F. to 1325 F.
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
If one has a heavy segregation of cementite like this and heat the steel only to let it air cool or cool in wood ashes, what you will get is a bar of soft workable pearlite with a band of extremely hard cementite running through the middle. This will allow you to drill or saw just fine until you reach that zone and then the drill will squeek and the saw will have its teeth rounded over, appearing as if you somehow hardened the steel in the operation, but the mechanisms for this to occur are not typically possible under such conditions. If these bands are large enough they can increase the brittlness of your final work as the cementite will end up in your grain boundaries when the blade is hardened.

This rings so close to home its not even funny. I have noticed this on every single knife ive made from a particular batch of 1095. I have also noticed some odd banding type formations along transition lines in clay treated blades from the same batch. No amounts of normalizing cycles took them out and I know the blades were not overheated yet a mirror polished blade when etched for 10 seconds would show the patterns....does this sound like the same cemitatie you describe? I always thought it was alloy banding but normalizing cycles should fix that.....

I think once my current batch of 1095 is gone, I am signing off on it for a while. Since i just took an order of 60 feet of pure, tested 1084 from Mace, i feel much more confident working with that.
 
rashid11 said:
first time I hear about Admiral to be avoided ! :(

What about their air-hardening variety - is it as bad ?

The CPM steels they sell should be just fine. However, it's not any cheaper from Admiral. i would get it direct from Crucible.
Crucible also sells stuff like A2, D2, M2, M4, O1, L6, etc.
 
mlovett said:
How many times must it be said on this and other forums. Stay away from admiral. You never know what you will get, condition, quality, or for that matter, grade. They seem to make it up as they go along. It's doubtful that what you got was even 1095 in the first place. Just what "THEY" call 1095. They're spec sheet isn't on either. I can't believe that makers keep buying from a supplier who miss lables,and knowingly sells inferior products. Of course they are cheaper. Fake always is. Custom knife makers are suppose to make a superior product. We can not do this with inferior materials. Boot Admiral!!! Or have the balls to tell your customers that you use inferior materials on their knives to save a little money. Mike

Where do you suggest getting 1095? Has anybody tried this place?

:http://www.wcisteel.com/products/highcarb.html

They sell it in some pretty good sizes, which would be good if you have to forge it a lot to make it homogenous.

Seems to me the manufacturer is responsible for the alloy content. If Admiral gets their 1095 from the same mill everybody else does, then what??
 
Thanks for all your help guys. And thanks Todd for offering to heat treat it for me. The knife is a stock removal piece and is finished now, ready for HT. Drilling my 1095 wasn't that bad. Hopefully I don't get a really stubborn piece.
 
mlovett said:
How many times must it be said on this and other forums. Stay away from admiral. You never know what you will get, condition, quality, or for that matter, grade. They seem to make it up as they go along. It's doubtful that what you got was even 1095 in the first place. Just what "THEY" call 1095. They're spec sheet isn't on either. I can't believe that makers keep buying from a supplier who miss lables,and knowingly sells inferior products. Of course they are cheaper. Fake always is. Custom knife makers are suppose to make a superior product. We can not do this with inferior materials. Boot Admiral!!! Or have the balls to tell your customers that you use inferior materials on their knives to save a little money. Mike

OK here's some balls for you..
I'm sure glad you are not in sales:rolleyes: I'll stick my foot in my month at times but I try to keep my foot out of someone else's month most the time.
try knowing some facts about what you buy first or call Terry at Admiral Steel for them..
1-800-323-7055 3193 fax 1-708-388-9317
he is a fair man to work with..you my good man
boarder close to slander..and not a credit in my book as a reasonable maker at this moment..
by the way Mr. mlovett I buy most my steel from Admiral Steel and I take great offence to your miss pointed wordings..

if you have Hot roll 1095 from Admiral Steel it is semi annelid about ~45 Rc and has a black mill surface..
if you have cold rolled 1095 it is dead soft and skinny smooth
both are sheared from plate.. being sheared you can have some ripples in the cold roll ..

the cold roll I believe comes in up to 5/32" thick they can't cold roll any thicker
so if it has a black surface it's not fully annealed.
 
I"ll have to agree somewhat with Dan. I've bought a whole lot of 1095, 1084 and later 1080 for my damascus from Admiral in the past with NO problems and Terry is a great guy to deal with. I buy my other steels (15n20, W1, W2, 1086M) from other sources. Admiral ain't all bad, I know quite a few makers who get good service from them.
 
You do have somewhat of a point. The best cutting knife I've made so far was Admirals 5160. I've only found one inclusion in all the knives I've made with their stuff. Their service has always been great. They quoted me a price for the above mentioned 5160 (1/2"X1-3/4"X22'. Heavy stuff), and called back and said they got it wrong. The actual price was higher than what they quoted, but they gave it to me for the quoted price anyway, without me asking them to. That's great! That's service! I've never had them send me the wrong thing either.
I'm not critizing their service, or even ALL of their steel. But, from testing, we know that SOME of their steel is not what they claim it is. I will continue ordering from them. Now that I know what's in their "L6" and 1080, I know how to treat them. I'll only use their "L6" in damascus combined with something like 1095 or O1. I tried making a knife using it straight, but just couldn't get it to work.
 
Phil
I'm not sure of what your full situation on their end was but
I'm sure you know
L6 comes with many masks.
of course any steel company should know what they have but mistakes do happen..I'm sure you know..AS a big outfit and to try and cater to a small part of their business,, it has to be hard,
they do have some good help problems I know of
and to put good help and good prices under the same roof ,, well you can figure the rest.

.I just don't go for flat out flaming anyone like that it's just not too Cool. have a good one..:)
 
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