1095 question

Joined
Nov 17, 2007
Messages
156
Let me first start with a little background on myself. I'm new to knife making, a year or so and I'm just now starting to heat treat myself. I like carbon steel. I'm an old school kind of guy and I like the patina so I’ve been buying 1095 from jantz and nothing else. I have been reading a lot here lately on heat treating and I'm getting conflicting data. I either read soak or quench right after heating to around 1475 or to non magnetic. I also have a book that hits on the subject and it puts 1050-1095 and 01 in same heat treating category with no mention of soaking. I have built my own propane forge and of course I can't control heat good enough for soaking. Ok all that said I have already heat treated a few blades without soaking and they seem hard, just as hard as others I've had "semi-professionally" heat treated, and I have not done any soaking myself. The guy that has been doing my heat treating does not really know if it has to soak but it does get soaked there. It’s being done on a conveyer belt heat treat system. This is done at a plant which the machinist does their own heat treating in a production type environment. I have read the sticky about this here but I’m wondering why are my blades hardening if I'm not doing it right by this site and why are there conflicting data from the web. Is the soaking step something recommended but not necessary. Also I know I could just buy 1080 and problem solved but I just got in a lot of 1095 and also this plant is starting to get kinda scary about people losing their jobs so I lost my heat treat guy since knife blades aren’t on the plants heat treat list. Sorry for the rambling and thanks ahead for any help.
 
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If you want to get the most from O-1 then it needs some soaking.You can skip it but you won't get the maximum performance.1095 has characteristics that are different from a 1080 also and should be understood before you HT it !
 
What do you consider hard? If you want the maximium from your steel you need to follow a good guide.There is so much more than meets the eye. Heat Treaters guide calls for 1450-1500 and a 10-30 minute soak for O1 and 1475 and no soak for 1095 an excellent threat on steels like 1095 was here recently by Kevin Cashen
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=615086
There is also a very recent question here on O1 that has links to some good O1 info

You really want to find out go to
http://www.cashenblades.com/
click on Metallurgy, techniques and other info and start reading you and your steel will be glade you did

Jim
 
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Ok I've done some more research on heat treating and now I see that O1 should defiantly be soaked but I still not convinced about 1095. Keven Cashen has some really good info here on the subject and I realize that he probably knows more about the physics of heat treating steel than anyone here but I just keep reading that a soak is not necessary from 9 out of 10 sites on the net. I understand that the simple quench after non magnetic method will probably not reach the maximum hardness of 1095 but am I only sacrificing a few points with the simple heat treat? I do understand that you don't want to overheat and have figured that before but when it gets close to color I constantly check with a magnet until it doesn't stick and then continue to heat for just another 30 seconds or so before the quench. Guys I'm not trying to argue and I really appreciate you helping out a newbie but I just don't want to buy expensive heat treating equipment or over complicate it when I'm trying to keep it simple with simple steel.
 
I just keep reading that a soak is not necessary from 9 out of 10 sites on the net.

This might be the source of your confusion. Be sure the site you are reading is a legitimate one with references and such.

That said, I have heat treated O1 and 1095 with a torch and gotten acceptable results, though I suspect they were not any better than I could have gotten using 1075/1080. If you're set on using 1095 and an open forge, which it seems you are, there is nothing wrong with that. You get to make your knives however you want. Otherwise, just buy someone elses. Just realize you may be able to get a little more performance out of your steel by using a different method. Be warned, 1095 will crack if you look at it wrong (as I learned the hard way) and for heavens sake, get some Parks 50 or equivalent oil, or you'll be loosing a couple more points of hardness (again something learned the hard way), or fixing a lot of cracked blades, depending on if you try a slower oil, or opt for water. Some people just have to pee on the electric fence to learn, and apparently I'm one of them.

The bottom line is you can make your knives using olive oil, Mapp gas, and a 1x30 grinder if you want, which I did, but just realize you may be sacrificing some performance if you want to use 1095 or O1, which I do.
 
I don't think you need to much soak 1095 and the HT guide doesn't say to. But, any carbon movement will take a little TIME. It does however take a very fast quench. At the very least use mineral oil, if not Parks 50. I used automatic transmission oil at first, but went to Parks. You can get a PID for $35 and a thermocouple with ceramic sheath for $23 from http://auberins.com/
So a good temp reading is less than $70 with shipping. All you need to wire it up is a 110 cord to terminals 1 and 2 and the thermocouple leads to 9 and 10. If it reads backwards and goes down as you heat just switch the thermocouples around. If you have a regulator on your propane and a way to throttle the air you should be able to hold a fairly close temp. If you don't have a forge you could make a simple one with an piece of pipe and a couple feet of Koa wool and stick your Map torch in thru a hole in the side. Real burners are not hard to make either.

Later you could get a SSR for $15 and a electric solenoid valve like this one
http://cgi.ebay.com/1-4-Electric-So...ts?hash=item300290712626&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14
and connect it to you forge's propane and the PID and have a forge that runs at a steady temp. especially if you set it up so the end of the thermocouple stuck thru one end of the forge then if you to were to stick a piece of say 3" pipe inside the forge so one end went around the end of the thermocouple and the other end was at the front of the forge. Then you place your blade in the other end of the pipe and it should heat pretty even and steady. You could vastly improve the quality of your HT.

PS you are sacrificing more than a couple points of hardness. If you do not convert as much of the steel to martensite as possible you will have a combination of martensite and peralite. A knife that has been fully converted to martensite and tempered to 57 RC is better than one that was not and is 57 RC. Its more than how hard it is.
You are free to do it anyway you want. You asked a question we are just trying to give you the answer. I understand no having extra money to play with. I spend a long time broke.

Also. if you want to keep it real simple 1080/1084 will convert at just above nonmagnetic better than 1095. That .15% of carbon makes a difference
 
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First of all I do not necessarily know that much more that any other good minds that are present, I may have made a few more mistakes than others and dedicated myself to learning as much as I could from them, there are some pretty sharp guys here and they seem to be steering you in a good direction.

One of the biggest mistakes I made and learned from was automatically listening to other knife makers about the best way to treat the steel in contradiction to the folks who made the steel. Heat treating is not a popularity contest, the steel really doesn't give a hoot about how many knife makers agree upon a method nor how well known the advice giver may be. You will also hear many platitudes along the lines of "there's more than one way to skin a cat!” the steel also doesn’t give a rip about cleaver sayings or folksy slogans. This concept may work for blade shaping and feline fur processing, but there are very definite methods for the best outcome in any given alloy and it is not all that open to debate- once again, the steel doesn’t care about out opinions.

The other biggest mistake I have made is to fall into the trap of feeling I know all I needed to know about the results. Knifemaker testing is notoriously subjective and misleading, and the greatest downfall of many a knifemaker are the words “…and it is working just fine for me!” Most knife use taps into perhaps 20% of the steels potential so there is a huge range of lost or added performance that is never revealed. So when we say that there is no difference between the blades with soak and those without, it absolutely necessitates the question “how do we know this?” It skates a file the same? It saws the same amount of rope? It whittles the same amount of wood? Entirely different numbers could be obtained simply by putting the knife in a different hand or sharpening in a slightly different way.

The only safe and logical thing we can do is rely upon the recommendations of the folks who made the steel and exhaustively tested it to determine who to treat it. The problem that comes about with knife makers it that they do not always possess the tools to nail the heat treating the way the specs lay out, but this does not give us the freedom to simply write out own rules and then bend reality to suit the results. Virtually every big bladesmiths super heat treating secret method that I have studied has ended up simply being a way to get a little bit closer to the heat treat that would have resulted using the tools and methods laid down by the industry that created it.

Soak is almost always good as long as you have control. Lacking the tools to do this there are some good ways to come close, here is what I would do with 1095:

After all forging operations, normalize carefully starting hot to put everything into solution and then quick air cooling, next heat to just above non magnetic and perhaps quench or another quick air cool, then on the third heat only go to glowing but never allowing the steel to lose magnetism before the final air cool. What this did is put all the carbon into play, then trap it into very small particles throughout followed by putting into superfine spheres throughout a soft matrix, allowing you to do you grinding and shaping.

For the final heat treatment if you set things up well you can eliminate much of the soak and only put enough of that carbon into solution to reach full harness while leaving the rest in the form of evenly distributed and very hard particles in the hardened matrix- think hard, fine gravel in concrete.

The proper temperature for this should be around 1475F, the magnet stops sticking at around 1414F, and yes the extra 61F does make a difference! If you are totally eliminating the soak it would be worthwhile to go closer to 1500F as long as you go no higher, but if you had that kind of control you could just soak it.

The quickest way to notice the difference between no soak and a proper one is in the tempering. With no soak you will reach HRC59- 60 very quickly after going above 400F or perhaps even well below it, folks who are tempering high carbon steels at 375F and not getting chipping or other over hardness issues are definitely not getting a proper soak. 1095 taken to 65-66 HRC after a proper soak could go higher than 500F in the temper and steel end up with workable knife hardness levels.

I hope this helps clear some of the mud from the water
 
I have used 1095 for yrs and can say when I first started usine it I heat treated it the same as I did 5160. Just brought to critical and quenched. I did many blades like that. Then read somewhere that 1095 needs 5 minute soak after it reached critical temp. I started doing it and have found a large difference. I say this from expirence. From 100,s of blades I have made. It REALLY makes a big difference. My suggestion to you is to use 5160. Considering you have a forge and cant regulate your tempature and allow for a soak 5160 will give you great results. 1095 is not the steel I would recomment to someone just gettinging started or who works with a forge and not a kiln with a pyrometer. Bill Moran once told me "You can work with one steel all your life and still learn new things about it all the time". Guys who are taking the ABS junior smith tests usually use 5160 with success. Since you have 1095 in stock, another suggestion is to edge quench it yourself with your forge blowing the dragons fire out of your entrance to forge and use the magnet (to check for critical temp) to heat for 6 minutes and then quickly quench. You will get better results than the production heat treat. Hope this helps and good luck.
 
Thanks a lot guys for all the help. I may save my 1095 until I can get the proper equipment and switch to 1080 or 5160 as recommended. I was looking to get a heat treat oven here soon anyway but I'm planning on dropping over a grand tomorrow on a kmg. Probably will be a several months until my boss (wife) will let me spend more on this hobbie. Again thanks a lot guys for all the help.
 
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