1095 with a purposely low rockwell

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P.Brewster said:
I'm hesitant to comment here because you seem to think that you have all the answers, and you also seem to think that you're entitled to have other people do your homework for you. However, I'll comment anyway. I can speak with some authority on this topic. I supply a lot of the steel and heat-treating for Bullseye Blades. I've made and sold well over 10,000 throwing knives. I'm extremely familiar with the other products you mention here. Cold Steel knives break all the time. True Bal does not make a live-edged knife as far as I know.

I think the biggest thing you're missing is that durability isn't a binary issue. The experience of any one user (you, for example) is mostly meaningless. The existence of a particular product with a particular declared use is mostly meaningless. What does matter is the actual failure rate of these products. Selecting one steel over another is a matter of reducing failure rates - it isn't a matter of eliminating failure. This is because the act of throwing subjects the steel to forces that often approach or exceed the material's strength. The torture testing video you posted is just not representative of the forces involved with knife throwing.

Make a thousand knives, sell them with some kind of generous/unlimited guarantee, and you'll see what I mean. Some of your customers will feel that your knife is absolutely indestructible. Some will be satisfied. Some will be disappointed that the edge retention isn't so great. Some will break your knife in the first month. Some will break it in the first year. Some will break it after 5 years. Dealing with knife warranty claims over international borders is a dumpster fire.
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Hi! thanks so much for the in depth response

first of all I would love to speak with you and would genuinely love to get your opinion on what i am about to write in my response but I feel like I have unpack a couple things in your first paragraph to clear the air. This is a forum, people ask questions about things they want to know, other people answer if they want, thats literally the purpose of a forum. Secondly I never said I had all the answers, I asked a specific question, people are not answering that question, i'm using 1095 because thats what my testing has shown to be the steel I need, i'm not asking if I should use it, I'm asking for some advice on heat treating it the way I want, thats all. This is the problem with forums. Also yeah true bal makes a live edge knife and yes I am aware cold steels snap a lot, I've got a a few busted ones in my garage right now.

the odds of me getting the guy who does the heat treating for bullseye blades to see this is pretty slim! pure luck, can I ask if you are also on the island or in van? Do you run a heat treating service? I might just use you

The reason If you are curious that I have settled on 1095 is because of the bark river STK thrower, its 1095 with a low RC of 48 to 50 and has a convex edge. It's never going to break, I have been trying very hard to break it. It holds a crazy edge, its easy to sharpen, it's an amazing knife. The video if nothing else proves to me ( I emphasize "to me" not indefinetly ) that 1095 with a low RC won't snap and will hold a decent edge, am I seeing that wrong? If my prototypes fail ill be moving on to a new metal.

In response to your second and third paragraphs you could not be more correct. I am simply looking to make a knife that performs a certain way successfully hopefully at least a lot more often than it fails. Funny enough I plan on doing exactly what you said in the third paragraph and am most definitely anticipating some headaches lol
 
wildnorth said:
respectfully basically none of what you have said is true, get on the google, check out bullseye blades, check out the bark river thrower, check out cold steel perfect balance throwers, cold steel jack dagger throwers, cold steel has some more large live edge throwing knives as well, check out a company called true balance. All of these company's make multiple live edge throwing knives, intended for throwing as well hard as field use. I own most of the throwing knives most of these company's make and I personally use them for throwing daily, daily carry usually at least one and use it daily for regular tasks as well as take them and use them hunting, camping and fishing.... they all hold an edge pretty well....
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You're welcome to disagree. Like I said, your mileage my vary. I'm already familiar with those knives and companies. I own several Cold Steel knives, including a 1055 machete which is the same steel (and very likely the same heat treat schedule) as their throwers. It is, in fact, very tough, but it holds what I personally would consider a mediocre edge, especially for what I would consider "hard use". On the other hand, I'm sure other people love the edge it their 1055 knives take.

As far as I understand, most of the companies and knives you've mentioned, market their throwing knives as throwers, and their users as users, with the exception of True Balance Knives. I guess I just don't know very many people that carry and use a throwing knife for anything but throwing, True Balance ad copy notwithstanding.
At any rate, I'm just giving you MY experience as a user, maker and occasional knife thrower, based on what MY definitions of hard use and edge retention are. I have no doubt there's a market for your knives. I'm probably not gonna be in your target demographic, though. I do wish you all the success, however.
 
Drew Riley said:
You're welcome to disagree. Like I said, your mileage my vary. I'm already familiar with those knives and companies. I own several Cold Steel knives, including a 1055 machete which is the same steel (and very likely the same heat treat schedule) as their throwers. It is, in fact, very tough, but it holds what I personally would consider a mediocre edge, especially for what I would consider "hard use". On the other hand, I'm sure other people love the edge it their 1055 knives take.

As far as I understand, most of the companies and knives you've mentioned, market their throwing knives as throwers, and their users as users, with the exception of True Balance Knives. I guess I just don't know very many people that carry and use a throwing knife for anything but throwing, True Balance ad copy notwithstanding.
At any rate, I'm just giving you MY experience as a user, maker and occasional knife thrower, based on what MY definitions of hard use and edge retention are. I have no doubt there's a market for your knives. I'm probably not gonna be in your target demographic, though. I do wish you all the success, however.[/QUOTE

definite thanks for the feedback! and thanks for the well wishes! Hopefully one day i'll make you a believer and sell you a blade! you must like a real razor edge, I definitely use a different sharper knife for skinning an animal or whittling. By hard use I mean using it like a tool, beating it mercilessly all around and it still comes back for more.
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Drew Riley said:
You're welcome to disagree. Like I said, your mileage my vary. I'm already familiar with those knives and companies. I own several Cold Steel knives, including a 1055 machete which is the same steel (and very likely the same heat treat schedule) as their throwers. It is, in fact, very tough, but it holds what I personally would consider a mediocre edge, especially for what I would consider "hard use". On the other hand, I'm sure other people love the edge it their 1055 knives take.

As far as I understand, most of the companies and knives you've mentioned, market their throwing knives as throwers, and their users as users, with the exception of True Balance Knives. I guess I just don't know very many people that carry and use a throwing knife for anything but throwing, True Balance ad copy notwithstanding.
At any rate, I'm just giving you MY experience as a user, maker and occasional knife thrower, based on what MY definitions of hard use and edge retention are. I have no doubt there's a market for your knives. I'm probably not gonna be in your target demographic, though. I do wish you all the success, however.
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definite thanks for the feedback! and thanks for the well wishes! Hopefully one day i'll make you a believer and sell you a blade! you must like a real razor edge, I definitely use a different sharper knife for skinning an animal or whittling. By hard use I mean using it like a tool, beating it mercilessly all around and it still comes back for more.
 
wildnorth,
I'll try and help you here a bit. You came on the forum yesterday as a registered user. You have posted this thread and pretty much didn't want to hear anything but that you were right in your steel choice. You may not realize that some of the best knifemakers around hang out here. They give their timer and expertise to help people make better knives. If someone like natlek makes an off comment, just don't reply. If someone who has made tens of thousands of knives and deals with the big companies replies … listen to them. In the end, the choices you make are yours, but telling people who have a lot of experience and knowledge that they don't know jack isn't how to be a welcome new member.

As far as your comment that they aren't answering your question, that may be because the question isn't correct.
 
You have to understand that most of the knife makers and users that frequent this forum and this area especially have a high standard for knives, edge retention and edge quality. Peoples idea here of what a good edge and edge retention is may differ from your own based on their experiences.

You're going to have a very hard time convincing anyone who responded in this thread that a 1095 knife with a hardness of 48-50 RC is going to be a serious user knife. You'll also have a hard time convincing them that a knife at least designed to have a suitable cutting edge will make an ideal throwing knife. That's just the audience you're speaking too.

I'm just curious have you had personal experience with any of the alternatives suggested previously in the thread?
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
If someone like natlek makes an off comment, just don't reply.
As far as your comment that they aren't answering your question, that may be because the question isn't correct.
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With one link I could show him thousand tempering chart for 1095 steel ...BUT he didn't mention nothing about HT of that steel .....he wrote that he has minimal experience heat treating metals .... That's why I responded that way in my post . And because I have no idea HOW he will HT that 1095 steel and what hardness he will get after quench !!And that make difference in tempering numbers for given hardness ....Anyway my answer was correct ! Newer mind , I will know for future ....
New member , do not bother to answer me for this post, there is no need...good luck with your project !
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
wildnorth,
I'll try and help you here a bit. You came on the forum yesterday as a registered user. You have posted this thread and pretty much didn't want to hear anything but that you were right in your steel choice. You may not realize that some of the best knifemakers around hang out here. They give their timer and expertise to help people make better knives. If someone like natlek makes an off comment, just don't reply. If someone who has made tens of thousands of knives and deals with the big companies replies … listen to them. In the end, the choices you make are yours, but telling people who have a lot of experience and knowledge that they don't know jack isn't how to be a welcome new member.

As far as your comment that they aren't answering your question, that may be because the question isn't correct.
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the question of how to get 1095 to a Rc of around 52 to 55 isn't correct? is the question some how un answerable? are you telling me it's not possible? another guy answered my question pretty well

Nobody is forcing anyone to reply to me, I have been pretty polite and well worded in my responses, if you attack me i'm going to respond, if you question me i'm going to explain myself in hopes of furthering the conversation and maybe learning something. What i'm not going to do is just accept what some random person online tells me no questions asked, pretty simple. This is why I hesitate to use forums.
 
Ocelot85 said:
You have to understand that most of the knife makers and users that frequent this forum and this area especially have a high standard for knives, edge retention and edge quality. Peoples idea here of what a good edge and edge retention is may differ from your own based on their experiences.

You're going to have a very hard time convincing anyone who responded in this thread that a 1095 knife with a hardness of 48-50 RC is going to be a serious user knife. You'll also have a hard time convincing them that a knife at least designed to have a suitable cutting edge will make an ideal throwing knife. That's just the audience you're speaking too.

I'm just curious have you had personal experience with any of the alternatives suggested previously in the thread?
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I'm looking for more around 55 RC and throwers based on bowie knives make the best throwers IMO, my knives are 9 to 14 inches long, i'm not taking about little dagger throwers

experience in working with them no in using them with purchased knives yes. I really had figured the fact that I said prototypes in my original post would have made it more obvious these will be made and tested, if they fail I will move on. I didn't just decide to use 1095 after 20 minutes of searching knife metals on google I have good reason, I've also done a lot of research into the heat treating already I was just hoping to have experienced people give me their take. I have a degree in metal fabrication I do have some understanding of what I'm doing here.
 
My plan is to heat the blank evenly to 1475 F
quench in oil within 2 seconds
temper at 650 F for 2 hours twice
 
wildnorth said:
the question of how to get 1095 to a Rc of around 52 to 55 isn't correct? is the question some how un answerable? are you telling me it's not possible? another guy answered my question pretty well

Nobody is forcing anyone to reply to me, I have been pretty polite and well worded in my responses, if you attack me i'm going to respond, if you question me i'm going to explain myself in hopes of furthering the conversation and maybe learning something. What i'm not going to do is just accept what some random person online tells me no questions asked, pretty simple. This is why I hesitate to use forums.
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No one attacked you here, they tried to help you by offering an alternative. You felt like that was an insult to your intelligence that no one else here agrees with your idea or plan, it's not an insult they simply don't agree based on their own experiences. No one here that offered you advice is a random internet person, many of them are seasoned knife makers and some of them own companies that produce knives in the same market you wish to enter as a total unknown.

Also just because you say "respectfully" before telling someone they don't know anything on a subject in which they've devoted years to doesn't mean you where respectful or polite.
 
Ocelot85 said:
No one attacked you here, they tried to help you by offering an alternative. You felt like that was an insult to your intelligence that no one else here agrees with your idea or plan, it's not an insult they simply don't agree based on their own experiences. No one here that offered you advice is a random internet person, many of them are seasoned knife makers and some of them own companies that produce knives in the same market you wish to enter as a total unknown.

Also just because you say "respectfully" before telling someone they don't know anything on a subject in which they've devoted years to doesn't mean you where respectful or polite.
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lol the last thing you said is almost straight from ricky bobby

none of what he said was actually accurate though lol some of it was wrong some of it was his opinion and none of it had to do with the question I asked. Every single throwing knife is a designed as a wedge? come on.... all those companies state right on their sites the knives are intended for field use as well as throwing and guess what I own a couple different throwers that hold a working edge well, so he was wrong, he said something online without checking first to see if he was correct... no big deal.... Funniest part all the people jumping to defend him are more insulted than he was, I never said anything rude to him except that he was wrong and I thanked him for taking the time to talk to me. I asked a simple question that I have already researched extensively because I forgot how full of uptight self righteous keyboard warriors forums were.... like I said, college degree, years of experience fabricating and working with metals, just wanted some experienced opinions on the right way to achieve something specific to see if it lined up with my own conclusions, instead I get a line of people clambering over one another to tell me off....
 
I'll answer the damn question.
You won't get decent edge holding on a knife heat treated for throwing, nor vice versa.
It's like trying to road race in a dump truck.
Now, if you can tell me otherwise-I'll put aside my 50 years of experience and listen to you.
College degree and experience fabricating metals means nothing. You have people who fabricate KNIVES here telling you straight facts about KNIVES.
But you have your mind made up and won't be confused by facts.
 
Here you go.

It does sound like the knife you want to make should be thrown

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http://www.admiralsteel.com/reference/heattrt.html
 
AVigil said:
Here you go.

It does sound like the knife you want to make should be thrown

sRn033H.gif


http://www.admiralsteel.com/reference/heattrt.html
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was that serious or sarcasm? I have no idea at this point with the amount of inane childish things that have been said. Thanks for the chart but I do have all this info, was just looking to get a confirmation on my process. It's just metal work, it's not some crazy wizardry lol
 
Bill DeShivs said:
I'll answer the damn question.
You won't get decent edge holding on a knife heat treated for throwing, nor vice versa.
It's like trying to road race in a dump truck.
Now, if you can tell me otherwise-I'll put aside my 50 years of experience and listen to you.
College degree and experience fabricating metals means nothing. You have people who fabricate KNIVES here telling you straight facts about KNIVES.
But you have your mind made up and won't be confused by facts.
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the only thing I have my mind made up on is making a PROTOTYPE out of a certain metal a certain way and testing it.... thats all, nobody said anything about putting them into production regardless if the prototype fails or not.... that wouldn't really make sense bill... I've heat treated enough knives I do know how it works.... I was just looking to get a confirmation on the specific process I was going to try, the metals pricey. I said I don't have much experience because I was trying to be humble and not act like I already knew what I was doing, especially since I just made the account to ask this question. I knew this would happen, it's the reason I've always avoided making an account on here or any other forums. I don't care at all what anyones opinion of the metal is or how they think it will perform, I think differently and I want to test it out, it's science bill, plain and simple. We are talking about a couple blanks here, a little R and D... have you ever tried specifically to do what I am proposing? i'm guessing not or you would have flat out said so... 50 plus years experience in an industry... you would think you would be a little more open minded to some experimentation bill
 
Bill DeShivs Bill DeShivs and by the way bill, you never actually answered my question, which is the point i've been trying to get through to you all. Just answer the damn question that was actually asked or keep it your self, you know, like an adult behaves in the real world....
 
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