12c27 for the BM 42... why?

Joined
May 6, 2001
Messages
458
Does anyone know why Benchmade chose 12c27 for the 42?

From the knowledge base here, I gather it's roughly analogous to 440A... meaning it's very stain resistant, but not as tough as 440C, let alone ATS 34 or BG 42... so it'll get worn down over time by the titanium pins.

Most of the other Balis I've seen here and there use 440 of some description, but considering that most of em also cost far less than the 42 I chalked it up to cheap materials...

Is there a reason they went with a softer steel, or is it just one more of life's little mysteries we'll all wonder about?
 
If you ask many of the steel snobs around here, they'll often look down their rarified noses at 12c27. It's not the next-phase, new-wave, dance-craze steel. But, I'm fond of pointing out that it's one of only a handfull of steel alloys ever developed specifically for knives. Most of the other steel alloys people fawn all over were actually developed for something else and just tend to work for knives too. This explains the endless search for the ideal knife steel alloy.

While I certainly don't want to call it a dead field, metalurgy, at least the metalurgy of steel, is a few well-known discipline. They've advanced beyond the point of "let's try some of this, a little of that, and pinch of that other stuff and see what kind of steel we get" to being able to design and formulate a steel alloy to meet specific requirments.

So, why doesn't somebody sit down and design and forumalate the ideal blade steel? The answer is what the answer often is: money. Developing and producing a special steel alloy costs money. When big customers come along and say, "if you make it, we'll buy the stuff by the train load," then a steel company can justify that expense. When a specific customer (often aerospace or defense) say, "We need an exotic, specialty steel. We're not going to buy much, but we'll pay dearly for what we do," then a steel company can justify the expense of developing a new specialty alloy.

But, for the most part, steel companies try to produce "middle-of-the-road" or "multipurpose" alloys that they can sell to many customers and engineers design products around those steels.

The knife industry is actually fairly small as industries go and it's price-sensitive too. So, we don't have the demand or the dollars to interest a steel company in developing an alloy specifically for us.

So, we use alloys that were developed for other purposes. None is ideal for knives. And that leads to the "alloy of the month club" effect as folks try one alloy after another. Yes, the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.

Sandvik did develope several alloys including 12c27 specifically for knives. While they've fallen out of fashion in the US (more because of fashion than because of performance), they remain very popular for knives in Europe.

Why did BM select 12c27 for the Model 42? I wasn't there. But, maybe it has something to do with experience. BM had used 12c27 for Bali-Song blades for many years with good results. Inasmuchas they were chaning so many other things when they went to the 42, the piviot and latch pin designs, the handle material, adding the latch gate, etc., that they felt like they didn't want to introduce another variable. I could see that.

I have also been told that 12c27 is not as brittle as some of the modern alloys like ATS-34. That would be desirable for a knife that might get dropped frequently.

It will not surprise me to see BM move away from 12c27 in the future now that they've got the rest of the 42 working well if for no other reason that the 42 is the only product in their line still using it and they probably don't want to have to purchase and stock it just for that one knife.

But, in conclusion, 12c27 is a good steel for blades. It was specifically formulated for blades. And, BM's many years of experience shows that it is a good steel for balisong blades.


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Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com
 
Damn, you said it Chuck.

I have found that after MANY drops on the blade of my 42, that there is no damage to the blade, even when I was sure that the hit it took would damage it.

I can tell from experience that the blade steel is harder than the titanium handles, as far as brittleness. I have taken a handfile to both, and the Ti files really well, but the blade was like filing across glass.

I know that the 42 is the only model that they use this steel for, but I think that it was a well informed choice. I don't doubt that they will change it over when they start introducing other blade profiles, (if they ever do...) but I don't mind the steel, I am constantly checking the edge, and "perfecting" it aproximately 2-3 times a week. I think that blade may be a little soft, but I've never heard of blade failure in a drop.
 
Ok, cool...

I wasn't much aware of the history of the steel, just that it was listed elsewhere by the "steel snobs" as roughly like 440A, which wasn't quite what the other steels were... but they didn't talk a lot about it, so I was curious what else I could learn.

I'll admit to being happy with its ability to handle being dropped... I just need to work on my ability to touch the point back up : )
 
Actually it isn't so much the steel as how it is heat treated. There are many good steels, and that includes the Sandvik (I think it's theirs) product. It is very likely that the blade, including the tang area is considerably harder than the pivot pins, titanium or other, blades being more costly to replace than pins, even the fancy, high quality double pin Benchmade uses.
 
I once saw a gentleman with handmade knives using .50 cal casings and rattail files ground down for blades and I'll say this Those things are brutes. he was working on a balisong using a file blade but, I havent seen him at the fleamarkets around here so...who knows.

Anyone else ever see or possibly use a blade like that? and more importantly what properties will that blade hold in terms of performance and structural integrity?
I was always going to try making one but I got into making chainmail instead.

Nate
 
Nate, perhaps you mean a balisong sort of like the one in This Thread?

Oh, and Mr. RARanney, you are quite right. Keep in mind that 12c27 is a very old alloy. When it first came out, heat treatment technology was not what it is today. Many of today's top custom makers have computer-controlled furnaces. Certainly better manufacturers such as BM use sophisticated heat treatment processes. But, back in the early days of 12c27, it was pretty much done in a forge by color. So, while today's 12c27 is the same alloy, today's finished 12c27 blade is much better thanks to better controlled heat treatment.


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Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">It's not the next-phase, new-wave, dance-craze steel.</font>

It's still Rock & Roll to me!
wink.gif


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What's that? A bag of tricks?
No, it's a bag of knives!
 
WOW What are the dimensions on that puppy anyway? Do you like file blades for utilitarian duties? if so, why or why not?

Thanks
Nate
 
Heh,speaking of "steel-of-the-month",I see that being used for swords as well.Someone has been using D2 tool steel for making his swords which he sells for high prices,saying they're the best because of the steel.
I've seen his blades get used in demonstrations by other swordmakers,and can tell you that D2 is *not* good for swords.I don't think I'd trust it for any other type of blade either...it just doesn't fit the need of a good blade.

Hey Nate...how long have you been into making chainmail?


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*The* Lunatic Puppy
It wasn't me...It was my *good* twin..
My "inner puppy" made me do it..
 
Flipping a balisong is an abuse that would void any warranty unless it's a balisong.
The tang pin digs into handles while the handle hits the pin with all the inertia of flipping. If blade steel (and tang pin also) is too hard, the pin would dig into handles too rapidly, and loosen in open position. Ditto the "kick" also digs into inside of handle.
12C27 is faily a soft not to dig too aggressively into handles. It's also tough or hard to break, serves well under condition of continual shock of flipping open/close for thousands times in its life.

IMHO the choice is thoughtfully made to serve BM's customers best. BM must be aware that if the balis were made of D2, BG42, or 154CM, they would have been more attractive in ads.

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Otokohadaremo yumenofunanori.
Shonennohinoakogare shinutokimade wasurezunidaiterumonodayo.
 
The shock-absorption thing sounds pretty reasonable... not that everything else here doesn't, it's just a structural point I hadn't thought about.

Actually, it's something I noticed between my 42, and my POS Jag that I re-built. The 42 has a little bit of a rattle when it hits the end of the swing, because the metals are both not very good at absorbing the shock, and they're light besides, so they bounce back more easily... where the Jag, being made of crappy pot-metal, absorbs the shock a little better and feels a little bit more solid when it snaps open (or closed)

And my vote is in, too, to hear more about Nate's chain mail...
 
I Have been into chainmail for about 3 years. I have made a coif and worked with a friend on making a shirt so far. I used to do leather armour which I love doing but its a pain because I only have 1 oven and I cant be sticking my armour in a tub of wax all the time AND feeding myself and my girlfriend. I was always going to try to make a hardened leather vest for my great dane just for kicks never did it though. If you are interested in armor, www.arador.com has a web board where you can see some of the most beautiful custom works of art. And most of these are used in combat as well. As far as steel goes, J2 stainless is popular for swords (not the live steel ones, those need to have a higher carbon content) As a side note, a friend of mine bought a katana that was made from (supposed) 440c that was mass produced in India. It looked nice and was weighted horribly, but he insisted we use it in practice. So I brough out my trusty saber bladed rapier (carbon steel German reproduction). during combat, he brought it straight down, so I blocked it horizontally, using mostly the flat of my blade (trying to keep him from contacting the edge of my sword). His katana broke in half, and we werent going full steam at each other. Unless its sold as "high carbon" or "live steel" dont use it because its not safe. www.swords-n-stuff.com has great combat swords. If you want more help, email me at cargod57@aol.com.

Nate
 
Ok..just wondering..I've been doing chainmail for over 10 years now,and enjoy meeting others who are interested in it.I've taught quite a few people how to do the stuff properly...and am always on the lookout for new apprentices.
As far as the steel,yeah,I've seen the same thing happen with swords that were sold from different places.The best so far that I've seen,is blades made from leaf springs of cars.It has a good strength,but also has the flexibility needed for a long blade.
Any knife,dagger or sword needs to be able to take punishment,but also needs to be flexible enough to return to true when hit from the side.Most small knives don't need as much flexibility as swords do,but they still need a little,so that if they get dropped on hard surfaces,they won't break or shatter.In a lot of cases,the harder the blade,the more brittle it can be.But,if it's too soft,it won't hold an edge and will likely get bent out of shape.The trick is finding the middle ground.


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*The* Lunatic Puppy
It wasn't me...It was my *good* twin..
My "inner puppy" made me do it..
 
Mr. Gollnick, you mentioned that Sandvik 12c27 is one of only a few steels designed specifically for cutlery. Do you know of others?
 
Sandvik 12c27 is perhaps one of the best steels for a Balisong... Yes I am mad!
wink.gif


I would prefer a better steel, but as a Bali is a fighting knife first and dropping it as a result of practice is probable, you want a tough steel. Question being though, wouldent BG42 be as tough at RC-58 or so?

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Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto

A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!
 
That was part of the point of my starting this topic... I didn't know what else was "acceptable," or better... nor the qualifications. Obviously being tough enough to be dropped numerous times is one of the qualifiers... I just wondered what else would be worthwhile... or better

Re: the chain mail thing, I had an idea at one point about making some modified pliers to shape individual links, with a circle groove ground into the two halves of the jaws, so that as you squoze the pliers, it would shape the wire and make the circle, and be easier than using two pairs of needlenose, which is how I've seen it done by some other folks... but I hadn't met anyone who did the mail to see if the idea was viable...
 
Mr. Samwereb,

I got your e-mail. Sorry I haven't got back to you. I was gonna try and do some research on the question. I do know that Sandvik has several alloys specifically for blades, but I don't know the details. They must have a website or something. Anyway, that question may get a better answer in the general forum or in one of the maker's forums.



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Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com
 
This was remembered and re-posted by John Hollister in the Emerson Forum in answer to a question regarding 154CM and ATS34.

I edited out that content and retained Mr. Emerson's remarks about BG42 which should clear something up in here as to why you do not see certain "Wondersteels" in your hand all of the time.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ernest Emerson:
"Latrobe BG-42 is a good steel, even a great steel. The heat treating is not exotic and any commercial heat treater can heat to specs required including the -120 treatment which is the standard cryo figure.

Unfortunately, Latrobe Steel provides BG-42 for bearing applications and not specifically for knifemaking applications. This is handled by their specialty steels
division. They produce the steel in bar stock and in small runs of such. Bar stock
will not work for major manufacturing processes. Most companies use lasers like
ours that require sheet stock material.

Yes, Latrobe will do a run for a certain quantity and dollar amount. It is not always the price but the ongoing availability of raw material that is the determining factor in choices made by manufacturers.

Our factory is set up on a just in time model and long lead times and guarantees of only small quantities, prohibit the use of this steel.

The Latrobe company does not look at the knife industry as a large enough customer to release mill time to address to address cutlery in the tonnage needed to supply major manufacturers at this time.

Perhaps this will change in the near or distant future. Remember, they make this
steel for turbine bearings and almost all of their production goes to that application."
</font>

I think it was Loveless who was experimenting with and praising the qualities of BG42 back in the 1970s, it is a good steel.

Personally, I have no problem with Benchmade's choice of steel in the BaliSongs of old or new.

Would I like to see BG42 in a BaliSong? Yeah, maybe after some shock testing was done.

Chuck is right about what he has posted with regard to what BM used then and now. It has not only proven to be a good steel in BaliSongs, but the heat treating is far better and far more consistent now.

Instead of them spending time and money experimenting with another steel, I would rather BM make a couple other blade styles for the 42 for some variety, as well as looking at a stainless steel handled version of the M42, with the same sized handles as the 42, just made of steel.

This would lower the cost of a very fine BaliSong and create a new line, expansion and would offer some competition in the market for these knives.

Not discarding the M42, just expansion of the line that BM is famous for, once again...

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"You are no more armed because you are wearing a pistol than you are a musician because you own a guitar." ~Jeff Cooper
And the same goes for a knife...
And, I'm a Usual Suspect.
Some of my Knives and other neat things

[This message has been edited by Don Rearic (edited 05-09-2001).]
 
To Lothar and Mac:
Rio Grande Jewelry supply (www.riogrande.com) has some pliers that have plastic on the jaws with a half circle milled into each jaw. I use these and some other small pliers they sell. If either of you (or anyone else) would like to discuss this, IM or email me at Cargod57(@aol.com)
 
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