14c28n is no joke!

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Another Shepherd said:
I have also found 14C28N from Ruike and Civivi to have better edge retention than expected from tests published by Larrin Thomas at knifesteelnerds and Pete at Cedric&Ada. I recently got a couple knives with Magnacut and I should do some comparisons.
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Important to keep in mind that those tests Dr. Larrin did are relative-- that is, they utilized billets of the same thickness, each steel tested in the same geometry, same methods of sharpening at the same angles, cutting the same material, etc.

That said, I've by and large REALLY enjoyed how 14C28N typically acts for me from most companies whose knives I've used-- I usually end up using my knives for a variety of materials including wood, plastic, cardboard, food. On paper, 14C28N should hold an edge about as long as AUS-8 or 8Cr13MoV, but I find the Sandvik steel strops back much more easily and with greater success than knives of similar geometry using the other two... so it ends up being used for longer between sharpening.

I wouldn't be terribly shocked if my Civivi knives using 14C28N with a deep hollow grind stay sharper longer than my Ruike knives using the same steel with a flat grind (with presumably similar heat treatment). It certainly seems that way to me, but I don't methodically test knives I buy, either.
 
It's a fine general purpose stainless steel for knives, sure. The real joke is the whole knife world, starting with the knife companies, the consumers, edc bros, just the whole thing. That whole thing is the joke. This steel is fine and dandy, what's the issue? It's not as tough as 13c26 for your over priced 3" sharpened pry bar that will be used to open mail in an air conditioned office? It's not as wear resistant as cemented carbide for the edc bros who don't actually know how to use or maintain a bladed tool so they hyperfocus on mostly meaningless shit like "edge retention" because they couldn't sharpen a knife to save their own life and they're afraid to try for some reason? I'd be more concerned about 1000 other things first before I'd obsess over the difference between 14c28n or 154cm in a knife, such as all the various aspects of the knife itself, and how the steel is treated and if any of it makes sense for the intended use and the price. That's my take.
 
Alberta Ed said:
Nothing wrong with 12C27. The late Butch Winter (RIP 2004), who penned “The Steel Bin” column in Tactical Knives (RIP 2014) thought highly of 12C27. I saved his column, "12C27: A Steel That Gets No Respect" from a couple of decades ago. It is a fine-grained steel that, "properly heat-treated, is a steel to be reckoned with", Winter concluded. Sandvik says on its website, “12C27 is Sandvik's most well-rounded knife steel with excellent edge performance allowing razor sharpness, high hardness, exceptional toughness and good corrosion resistance. Continuous improvement over a period of 45 years has evolved it into the high performing steel grade it is today. The composition is tighter, the purity level is much higher and the fine carbide microstructure of today is far from how Sandvik 12C27 knife steel of the sixties looked. With a hardness range of 54-61 HRC, high toughness, scary sharpness and good corrosion resistance, Sandvik 12C27 is the recommended grade for hunting knives, pocket knives, camping knives, high-end chef's knives and tactical knives.”
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If it's properly cooked ! If it's hard enough , and if etc .. Just like any other steel out there . If it's poorly cooked , it's poor steel !
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/brisa-hiker-95.1903594/ My Brisa Hiker 95 is 12c27n & a $100 banana knife that performs like a $20 banana knife .
This steel just rolls and rolls .. ( Just tested it once again a few days ago .. I will add it to the review = A roller ) If you like 12c27n , you like it .. I mean some people like BMW's and yet others like Fords .
But my Sandvik ( That I own ) not that impressive no matter who vouches for it !
 
dogstar said:
Not too shabby, then ;)
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No I love it if done right. Obviously the stainless opinels are 12c27 and I've an Eka blade in it and have found it an excellent blade steel, very very easy to get razor sharp, very tough and again if HTed right holds an edge at least for my use an acceptable amount of time.
 
Alberta Ed said:
Nothing wrong with 12C27. The late Butch Winter (RIP 2004), who penned “The Steel Bin” column in Tactical Knives (RIP 2014) thought highly of 12C27. I saved his column, "12C27: A Steel That Gets No Respect" from a couple of decades ago. It is a fine-grained steel that, "properly heat-treated, is a steel to be reckoned with", Winter concluded. Sandvik says on its website, “12C27 is Sandvik's most well-rounded knife steel with excellent edge performance allowing razor sharpness, high hardness, exceptional toughness and good corrosion resistance. Continuous improvement over a period of 45 years has evolved it into the high performing steel grade it is today. The composition is tighter, the purity level is much higher and the fine carbide microstructure of today is far from how Sandvik 12C27 knife steel of the sixties looked. With a hardness range of 54-61 HRC, high toughness, scary sharpness and good corrosion resistance, Sandvik 12C27 is the recommended grade for hunting knives, pocket knives, camping knives, high-end chef's knives and tactical knives.”
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Are you able to send me that article? I have a book in the editing stage on the history of knife steel.
 
I remember people used to crap all over Southern Grind for using it in their knives. In all fairness though, that may have been more because of the cost of the knife and the percieved value of that steel than the performance.
 
I like 14c because it takes a very sharp edge and it strops back very easily. Edge retention is not great, but if you can strop it back to hair-whittling sharp without too much effort, does it really matter? I guess there are some circumstances where it would, but I don't find myself in those circumstances.
 
FWIW, here's 12C27: A Steel that Gets No Respect by Butch Winter from Tactical Knives, probably 1998:

My introduction to 12C27 came at one of the Knifemaker Guild Swedish shows so long ago I don't want to think about it. Sandvik, the Scandinavian steel company that produces 12C27, put on a demonstration for all the knifemakers to introduce their new steel designed especially for knives.
Sandvik, in my opinion, was unlucky in choosing this time to promote 12C27. Bob Loveless had just discovered 154CM, and most knifemakers thought it was going to be the answer to their woes, a stainless steel with super edge-holding ability. And it was, at the time.
Despite the lackluster reception the Sandvik people were given, what they said made perfect sense to me. I'll quote from Sandvik's bulletin on the steel:
Sandvik's Reasoning
"When selecting steel for edge tools, it is important to balance the different requirements regarding corrosion resistance on one side and hardness, cutting edge durability, and wear resistance on the other. When doing this it is important to be aware of the fundamental metallurgical facts concerning chemical composition, microstructure and the effects of the necessary heat treatments.
"12C27 is a grade developed by Sandvik AB. The objective of this development work was to produce a grade for application where high demands are placed on both corrosion resistance and hardness. In many applications where corrosion resistance is not required, 12C27 still is the best solution thanks to its very good wear resistance."
What did Sandvik do that makes them think that 12C27 is so great? Quoting again, "Corrosion resistance is determined by the chromium content of the martensite/austenite (hardstuff/softstuff). It increases rapidly with increasing chromium content of the matrix up to a value of 11.5% chromium. At this content the steel is stainless in not too aggressive environments. Above this threshold value the corrosion resistance is only slowly increased by additional chromium."
What they're saying is that about 11.5% chromium is going make the steel stain-resistant to an appreciable degree and adding more chromium will help but with diminishing returns.
Quoting further, "A very high corrosion resistance and a very high hardness can never be achieved at the same time. The reason is that both chromium and carbon suppress the temperature where the transformation from austenite (unhardened steel) into martensite (hardened steel) starts." This keeps the austenite from completely transforming into martensite (retained austenite).
"A steel with good corrosion resistance and the highest possible hardness should thus have a matrix composition of about 11.5% chromium and .50% carbon...for most hardenable stainless steels...carbon and chromium are bound in the undissolved carbides where they contribute neither to the hardness nor to the corrosion resistance.
"A certain amount of excess carbides is desirable in order to avoid grain growth which would occur if all carbides were dissolved during hardening. Grain growth would cause a coarse hardening structure and brittleness. The wear resistance is improved by the presence of undissolved carbides. Primary carbides should be avoided when a smooth edge is needed. The reason is that the primary carbides… tend to cause 'tear-outs' in the edge at the grinding operation."
What all this is about is that Sandvik is trying to explain that 12C27, after heat treating, because of its chemical composition, is a fine grained steel. Notice the number and amount of the elements: carbon .6%, chromium 13.5%, silicon .40%, manganese .40%. Compared with 440C, for instance, they are fewer and lesser. 440C has .9-1.25% carbon, 16-18% chromium, 1% manganese, .75% molybdenum, .04% phosphorus, 1% silicon, and .03% sulfur. So, 12C27, compared with most other stainless steels is a rather simple alloy. And, Sandvik says, this makes for a fine grained, hence better, knife steel.
How does it work? Very well indeed. I have had several knives made from the sample strip of steel all who attended that seminar received. One of the knives has been cutting cardboard for over 10 years. Wayne Clay and Larry Downing have also contributed blades for test. Neither of them really cared for the steel, but I don't feel they gave it a fair test. The only knifemaker I have found who has used the steel and likes it is Darrel Ralph, and he agrees with me that 12C27, properly heat-treated, is a steel to be reckoned with.
Any knifemaker out there who isn't happy with his stainless steel should think about giving 12C27 a try. At times the answer to a complex problem is the simplest one.
 
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there is a reason some of the oldest names in knives use 12c27, mora & opinel & casstrom & helle ... they know what they're doing as evidenced by their longevity
...very happy to see some of them also adopted 14c28n
 
Chronovore said:
Not exactly. They use a modified version of 12C27 with even less carbon and they run it pretty soft.
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That's interesting. 12C27 has been (and still is) widely used in the French cutlery industry for years. It's affordable, available, easy to machine, easy to maintain and performs very well in all aspects desirable in a knife. I still give a plus to 14C28 because it has all the qualities of 12C27 but better edge holding, in my everyday uses, that is. So, I wonder why Opinel would care to use a special formulation of 12C27 (which is plenty stainless by itself and so easy to sharpen) for their very affordable knives. It seems like reinventing the wheel with no actual benefits (more stainless, even easier to sharpen... really needed ?). Now, of course, Opinel produces a huge amount of knives so an even slightly cheaper, slightly easier to machine version of 12C27 can generate big profits.
 
I’ve had the same experience as well. I just sharpened up my Civivi sokoke last night and feel like it is at a pretty high HRC. Holds and edge really well and supports thin geometry
 
herisson said:
That's interesting. 12C27 has been (and still is) widely used in the French cutlery industry for years. It's affordable, available, easy to machine, easy to maintain and performs very well in all aspects desirable in a knife. I still give a plus to 14C28 because it has all the qualities of 12C27 but better edge holding, in my everyday uses, that is. So, I wonder why Opinel would care to use a special formulation of 12C27 (which is plenty stainless by itself and so easy to sharpen) for their very affordable knives. It seems like reinventing the wheel with no actual benefits (more stainless, even easier to sharpen... really needed ?). Now, of course, Opinel produces a huge amount of knives so an even slightly cheaper, slightly easier to machine version of 12C27 can generate big profits.
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It could be easy machining plus extreme ease of sharpening. They pride themselves on "knives for the working man" and their knives being easy to touch up on the bottom of a coffee cup or a random rock. 🤷‍♂️
 
Took me an hour and a half on an edge pro apex using coarse to ultra fine to fix a really damaged edge on a standard pocket knife sized 14C28N blade.
 
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