14C28N steel

[emjay]

I don't think that is true if all properties are equal (the grind, edge, overall geometry, heat treat). s30v/s35vn, m390 (which is 20cv) all have massive amounts of chromium and vanadium carbide which hugely affect edge retention. Sandvik steels (12c27, 13c26, 14c28n) have next to none in comparison. It is mainly cementite (carbon and iron) and a very small degree of chromium carbide. It would be virtually impossible to have even close to the edge retention of even s35vn with all the factors being equal I mentioned before.

A good source for this is: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2020/05/01/testing-the-edge-retention-of-48-knife-steels/ The author Larrin Thomas uses this forum from time to time so if he sees this im sure he can correct/add on to what I am saying.

I've read his article. Very informative and consistent and it's honestly the best edge retention information out there. The thing is, knife manufacturers are different to each other. The blade grind on one model from knife manufacturer X is unlikely to be the exact same as a model from knife manufacturer Y. Heat treatment will also be different, as we all know. So from that point, it's interesting to see how a budget knife with a budget steel can outperform an expensive knife with a more premium steel.

I'm not saying that the Sandvik steels are better than the powder steels, because yes, if everything is equal, the powder steels are better, but things rarely are equal, which has a profound impact on the test results with regards to cardboard cutting specifically done in these tests in the way that the tests have been done. It's just interesting to see.

 

[Dr Rez]

I've read his article. Very informative and consistent and it's honestly the best edge retention information out there. The thing is, knife manufacturers are different to each other. The blade grind on one model from knife manufacturer X is unlikely to be the exact same as a model from knife manufacturer Y. Heat treatment will also be different, as we all know. So from that point, it's interesting to see how a budget knife with a budget steel can outperform an expensive knife with a more premium steel.

I'm not saying that the Sandvik steels are better than the powder steels, because yes, if everything is equal, the powder steels are better, but things rarely are equal, which has a profound impact on the test results with regards to cardboard cutting specifically done in these tests in the way that the tests have been done. It's just interesting to see.

Thanks for your response. Just to note, I wouldnt say powdered steels are "better" as all steel is a trade off (for the most part). For instance even the lowly 12c27 has some amazing qualities no powered steel has (fine grain structure supporting very thin sharp edge) and can be sharpened super easily. Everything comes at a cost, especially great edge retention. All depends on your use.

I think it goes to show that blade geometry is always #1. Grind and grind angle is #2. Steel is #3.

As much as I hate saying it lol (steel fascinates me) I would be far happier with a knife that has great ergos and a wonderful geometry but 440a steel than I would one with incredible steel and crap geometry and grind. Although why not have both

 

[Chronovore]

I don't think that is true if all properties are equal (the grind, edge, overall geometry, heat treat). s30v/s35vn, m390 (which is 20cv) all have massive amounts of chromium and vanadium carbide which hugely affect edge retention. Sandvik steels (12c27, 13c26, 14c28n) have next to none in comparison. It is mainly cementite (carbon and iron) and a very small degree of chromium carbide. It would be virtually impossible to have even close to the edge retention of even s35vn with all the factors being equal I mentioned before.

A good source for this is: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2020/05/01/testing-the-edge-retention-of-48-knife-steels/ The author Larrin Thomas uses this forum from time to time so if he sees this im sure he can correct/add on to what I am saying.

I've done enough edge retention testing not to trust most people's results. They don't control enough variables when they set up their tests.
I do trust Larrin's results. He not only controlled the hardness of the alloy, but also the geometry of test blade. Both things that most tester's ignore. Geometry is way more important than alloy when it comes to edge retention results.

It's important to remember that any test is modeling particular conditions. Larrin's tests are awesome because they control for a lot of variables. However, they are testing a particular heat treatment for a given steel and testing it against a particular medium. Looking at his table of results for edge retention, do you see any surprises? In actual production knives that you can buy right now, do 8Cr13Mov, 14C28N, AEB-L, Nitro-V, and LC200N all have the same edge retention? Does 440A have better edge retention than all of those steels? Is 440A equivalent to BD1N? Just comparing Spyderco knives, does VG-10 have much better edge retention than BD1N?

Now, Outpost 76 might not have the same level of control but it's not willy-nilly either. He sharpens the same way to 15dps using a KME. He sharpens more than once. He takes care to get past the steel at the factory edge. He tests more than once to check for repeatable results. He is testing on a 1" section of taped off blade against the average cardboard a lot of people might actually be cutting in real life. Accepting these tests for what they are, his results are a valuable contribution.

 

[Dr Rez]

Now, Outpost 76 might not have the same level of control but it's not willy-nilly either. He sharpens the same way to 15dps using a KME. He sharpens more than once. He takes care to get past the steel at the factory edge. He tests more than once to check for repeatable results. He is testing on a 1" section of taped off blade against the average cardboard a lot of people might actually be cutting in real life. Accepting these tests for what they are, his results are a valuable contribution.

Does he match thickness behind the edge? Seems like that would be a massive factor in any results.

 

[knarfeng]

I disagree.

 

[emjay]

I disagree.

Why boss?

 

[Another Shepherd]

Here are Dr. Larrin Thomas's more recent test results: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2021/10...ness-edge-retention-and-corrosion-resistance/

If you value toughness over edge retention, 14C28N is hard to beat, especially if you also care about price.

 

[chalby]

As much as I hate saying it lol (steel fascinates me) I would be far happier with a knife that has great ergos and a wonderful geometry but 440a steel than I would one with incredible steel and crap geometry and grind. Although why not have both

I 100% agree with this. IMO, way too much is made of edge retention and importance of steels.

Obviously there are levels here but I would recommend choosing a knife you think will fit your purpose over just choosing a steel and getting something that hasn't got the other attributes you are looking for. Also I would recommend not putting too much importance on one source of information, like a single youtube channel. But that's just me.

 

[Chronovore]

Does he match thickness behind the edge? Seems like that would be a massive factor in any results.

He often talks about this in the discussion. That's something else to remember. The spreadsheet shows the accumulated numbers from past tests. Just as with a paper, you look at the data table but you also read the discussion and conclusion. I'm not saying the dude is perfect. I'm just saying that he is contributing something good here. If anyone wants to step up and do a better job, go for it. (Seriously.)

I know some people were gonna say "Larrin did it". Well, Larrin is doing it. Larrin's contribution is ongoing and I welcome it. (I have a knife in a steel he invented.) That doesn't mean there isn't more to contribute or that we shouldn't welcome other reasonable efforts. My point stands about exactly what is being modeled in certain types of test. For instance, consider the results for the Rat in D2 vs AUS-8. The test went one way under the conditions from Outpost 76 and another way for Pete's rope-cutting conditions. All of our conditions are different so I value seeing knives tested under a variety of conditions.

I 100% agree with this. IMO, way too much is made of edge retention and importance of steels.

Obviously there are levels here but I would recommend choosing a knife you think will fit your purpose over just choosing a steel and getting something that hasn't got the other attributes you are looking for. Also I would recommend not putting too much importance on one source of information, like a single youtube channel. But that's just me.

A lot of factors go into making a great knife. Steel is only one of them but it is a fairly important one. There is certainly a relationship between steel and price. I think it is a key factor in determining whether a particular knife is a good deal relative to the current market. Like you say, there are levels here. A $200 knife that hits all the usual sweet spots for EDC but runs 5Cr15 is going to be a bad deal for most people. Meanwhile, finding good edge retention amid the lower price tiers is pretty cool.

 

[Another Shepherd]

I find it fascinating that there are so many different ways to define and measure things like "edge retention" and "sharpness". The more data, the merrier. But I'm a statistician, so I'm funny like that.

 

[justjed]

People make too much of the steel. There's no such thing as a 'bad' knife steel. Not all steels will make a good knife, of this there is no doubt. But, generally, if it can be hardened to above 54-55RC, it will make a perfectly serviceable knife.