14c28n vs m390

[kobold]

14c28n is ideal if I want to be able to quickly sharpen it in the field with something small and simple like a DC3 or DC4 sharpener.
That's why I often carry it. It should be more popular.

 

[AntDog]

14c28n is what Kershaw uses for the Lucha and I’ve used one extensively as an EDC. It’s fantastic. Easy to sharpen, cuts like nobody’s biz, and does hold an edge very well. I’ve used it a LOT in the kitchen.

I like M390 as well, but it’s much harder to sharpen and tends to get dinged up a lot more easily.

 

[ace]

If you like keeping your knives extremely sharp, you might be interested to learn that a few people have run tests and come to the conclusion that all steels lose their razor sharp edge at pretty much the same rate. Super steels just take much longer to go from moderately sharp to dull. So for your preferences, 14c28n might just be better in every way. I'm a fan of m390 for pocket knives but won't mind 14c28n either. For kitchen knives, on the other hand, 14c28n is currently my favorite, since my sharpness standards for those are higher.

This is a myth, higher wear resistant steels hold their front end sharpness longer when wear is the primary dulling mechanism. If you think about it, it make sense too. Why would it not be the case? Also, for knife purposes all steels get as sharp when appropriate abrasives are used. Of course some steels are easier to get sharp.

 

[Tsujigiri]

This is a myth, higher wear resistant steels hold their front end sharpness longer when wear is the primary dulling mechanism. If you think about it, it make sense too. Why would it not be the case? Also, for knife purposes all steels get as sharp when appropriate abrasives are used. Of course some steels are easier to get sharp.

It's not the case because a razor sharp edge is very fine and easily damaged, especially by abrasive additions in things like cardboard. Once you get to a working edge, though, the additional carbides in super steels resist wear better than in a steel that doesn't have them. These carbides are too big to be effective at protecting the finest edges.

A bunch of independent testers and materials scientists have come to this same conclusion. Hence why super steels aren't popular with straight razors and kitchen knives. If you're going to lose the edge you want at about the same rate, you might as well go with a steel that's easier to sharpen back to that edge.

 

[Therom]

Both 14c28n and m390 are good knife steels IMO
I have both in my collection and use them both but for me M390 is just in a different league if you have a proper sharpening system (I use a Spyderco sharpmaker) and develop the skills to get a good edge on M390

Even in the present “hyper steel” race I still have m390 has my favorite steel for folders when it is done at a proper HRC

My only issue with m390 is that a lot of companies run it quite soft at 60 or under and at this point I have seen quite a difference

For entry price folders I would pick 14c28n or 154cm rather than a soft m390 that will still be charged at a higher price than a good 154cm

 

[ace]

It's not the case because a razor sharp edge is very fine and easily damaged, especially by abrasive additions in things like cardboard. Once you get to a working edge, though, the additional carbides in super steels resist wear better than in a steel that doesn't have them. These carbides are too big to be effective at protecting the finest edges.

A bunch of independent testers and materials scientists have come to this same conclusion. Hence why super steels aren't popular with straight razors and kitchen knives. If you're going to lose the edge you want at about the same rate, you might as well go with a steel that's easier to sharpen back to that edge.

Do you by chance have references of these independent tests? If you look at this https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/11/26/steel-edge-retention2/ specifically the section "Initial Edge Wear" it seems to contradict what your are claiming. Of course this is behavior in CATRA, but this is a wear resistance test that has high correlation to for example carboard cutting test results, so it would be expected that the conclusions would be similar. I don't know anything about straight razors and push cutting performance that these involve in, but I know a lot about kitchen knives and how different steels perform in that environment. There is no question that higher wear resistance steels hold any level of sharp edge longer in that environment than low wear resistance steels. High wear resistance steels are used little in kitchen knives for different reasons not because initial edge holding is the same. In kitchen knives you deal with a lot of steel and grinds are very important for best performance, making knives out of high wear resistant steels is difficult and expensive for the makers and keeping the grinds performing at their best through thinning is difficult with high wear resistant steels for the users. It has nothing to do with there not being a difference in initial edge holding.

 

[gooeytek]

It's not the case because a razor sharp edge is very fine and easily damaged, especially by abrasive additions in things like cardboard. Once you get to a working edge, though, the additional carbides in super steels resist wear better than in a steel that doesn't have them. These carbides are too big to be effective at protecting the finest edges.

A bunch of independent testers and materials scientists have come to this same conclusion. Hence why super steels aren't popular with straight razors and kitchen knives. If you're going to lose the edge you want at about the same rate, you might as well go with a steel that's easier to sharpen back to that edge.

I have kitchen knives in high-HRC AEB-L, Magnacut, CPM-D2, and their edge-holding is night and day compared to even the higher-end Shuns I have. Shuns have good geometry, but that being equal to the customs, the difference is embarrasing.

I had a fillet knife made in 62-63 HRC AEB-L, and I let the fishmonger use it to prep a 150-lb swordfish. He didn't even touch it up once. He had a drawerful of Dexter fillet knives, and while he uses thoese a lot, he said he'd have to touch up the edge about 5-6 times to prep a swordfish that size. Granted, the cost of my fillet knife is about 2-3x of a Dexter, I feel it's worth it.

 

[Tsujigiri]

Do you by chance have references of these independent tests? If you look at this https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/11/26/steel-edge-retention2/ specifically the section "Initial Edge Wear" it seems to contradict what your are claiming. Of course this is behavior in CATRA, but this is a wear resistance test that has high correlation to for example carboard cutting test results, so it would be expected that the conclusions would be similar. I don't know anything about straight razors and push cutting performance that these involve in, but I know a lot about kitchen knives and how different steels perform in that environment. There is no question that higher wear resistance steels hold any level of sharp edge longer in that environment than low wear resistance steels. High wear resistance steels are used little in kitchen knives for different reasons not because initial edge holding is the same. In kitchen knives you deal with a lot of steel and grinds are very important for best performance, making knives out of high wear resistant steels is difficult and expensive for the makers and keeping the grinds performing at their best through thinning is difficult with high wear resistant steels for the users. It has nothing to do with there not being a difference in initial edge holding.

I guess it depends on what your definition of razor sharp is; unfortunately there isn't any standardization there. CATRA uses abrasive cardboard, so you'd lose what I define to be a razor sharp edge in the first cut; the initial edge wear data there focuses on what happens after that.

As for kitchen knives, again it's a matter of preferences and definitions. Your explanation applies to a pretty niche case use; mine applies to what seems to be the majority of users in that community (or maybe we just frequent different kitchen knife groups). The kitchen knife enthusiasts I'm more familiar with will spend twice as much as a custom maker would charge for Elmax or Magnacut on a well-crafted Honyaki made from pretty basic carbon steel.

 

[ace]

I guess it depends on what your definition of razor sharp is; unfortunately there isn't any standardization there. CATRA uses abrasive cardboard, so you'd lose what I define to be a razor sharp edge in the first cut; the initial edge wear data there focuses on what happens after that.

As for kitchen knives, again it's a matter of preferences and definitions. Your explanation applies to a pretty niche case use; mine applies to what seems to be the majority of users in that community (or maybe we just frequent different kitchen knife groups). The kitchen knife enthusiasts I'm more familiar with will spend twice as much as a custom maker would charge for Elmax or Magnacut on a well-crafted Honyaki made from pretty basic carbon steel, for the reasons I stated.

Agreed, it very much depends on the definition of what you call razor sharp, but it would still be informative to see some references to the tests by independent testers you said support your conclusions.

I agree that kitchen knife enthusiasts will spend more on a honyaki than on a knife made out of high wear resistant steels. But it is not due to the reasons you stated. Honyaki don't inherently have any performance benefits vs a mono steel knife made out of the same steel and heat treated to the same hardness. Honyaki construction doesn't have any performance benefits in kitchen knives. The reasons I've described do not apply to a niche case since thinning in order to keep the grind performing as you sharpen the knife is standard practice in kitchen knife space. Many western makers charge very little premium for honyakis anyway and often charge more for the same knife in high alloy steels, since these are more expensive to produce due to the labor and materials involved.

 

[Meridian]

14c28n at 62 hrc everytime over m390 at any hrc. Never had aebl or 14c28n chip like m390 in moderate or hard use. Excellent edge stability.

 

[Tsujigiri]

I have kitchen knives in high-HRC AEB-L, Magnacut, CPM-D2, and their edge-holding is night and day compared to even the higher-end Shuns I have. Shuns have good geometry, but that being equal to the customs, the difference is embarrasing.

I had a fillet knife made in 62-63 HRC AEB-L, and I let the fishmonger use it to prep a 150-lb swordfish. He didn't even touch it up once. He had a drawerful of Dexter fillet knives, and while he uses thoese a lot, he said he'd have to touch up the edge about 5-6 times to prep a swordfish that size. Granted, the cost of my fillet knife is about 2-3x of a Dexter, I feel it's worth it.

AEB-L is very similar to 14C28N (closer to 13C27), great steel for kitchen knives IMO. Another thing to note is that heat treat might account for a lot of that difference; Shun has been criticized on that front before (I like mine despite that, though). I've heard that the 4116 steel and its analogs are particularly sensitive to heat treat, explaining why Wüsthofs perform better than the budget knives that use the same steel.

Agreed, it very much depends on the definition of what you call razor sharp, but it would still be informative to see some references to the tests by independent testers you said support your conclusions.

I agree that kitchen knife enthusiasts will spend more on a honyaki than on knife made out of high wear resistant steels. But it is not due to the reasons you stated. Honyaki don't inherently have any performance benefits vs a mono steel knife made out of the same steel and heat treated to the same hardness. Honyaki construction doesn't have any performance benefits in kitchen knives. The reasons I've described do not apply to a niche case since thinning in order to keep the grind performing as you sharpen the knife is standard practice in kitchen knife space. Many western makers charge very little premium for honyakis anyway and often charge more for the same knife in high alloy steels, since these are more expensive to produce due to the labor and materials involved.

I don't have a single unified study but if you look into the BESS testing enthusiasts, they all seem to be able to replicate that result. I'd also say that when the differences become small enough, the results that someone like Larrin can measure scientifically become nearly imperceptible in actual use. Whereas the differences in ease of sharpening, while impossible to quantify, are very noticeable in real world use. Which essentially boils down to my original statement.

Yes, I know that's not the exact reason why honyakis are popular, hence why I edited that out of my post before you responded. It must have been after you grabbed the quote, though. My point was more that the value calculus for kitchen knives is very different than for pocket knives, and prioritizes ease of sharpening over edge retention. For instance, as nicely as a Sebenza is built, I don't imagine CRK would sell nearly as many of them right now if they used 420HC. Whereas with a honyaki, people appreciate the artistry and it doesn't even occur to anyone to gripe about the "basic" steel since it actually works really well in that setting.

 

[Blade Lab]

I'd be a lot more fond of 14c28n if we saw more of it in the 62-64 hrc range, as opposed to the 58-60 you generally see with budget folding knives.

 

[SwissHeritageCo]

It's not the case because a razor sharp edge is very fine and easily damaged, especially by abrasive additions in things like cardboard. Once you get to a working edge, though, the additional carbides in super steels resist wear better than in a steel that doesn't have them. These carbides are too big to be effective at protecting the finest edges.

A bunch of independent testers and materials scientists have come to this same conclusion. Hence why super steels aren't popular with straight razors and kitchen knives. If you're going to lose the edge you want at about the same rate, you might as well go with a steel that's easier to sharpen back to that edge.

This is my experience. Depending on the cutting medium, that screaming sharp edge goes away rather quickly regardless of the steel.

 

[gooeytek]

As for kitchen knives, again it's a matter of preferences and definitions. Your explanation applies to a pretty niche case use; mine applies to what seems to be the majority of users in that community (or maybe we just frequent different kitchen knife groups). The kitchen knife enthusiasts I'm more familiar with will spend twice as much as a custom maker would charge for Elmax or Magnacut on a well-crafted Honyaki made from pretty basic carbon steel.

I'm a kitchen knife enthusiast.

I have several Japanese-made knives (not custom, but they damn sure cost a lot) in Hitachi white that are amazing in craftsmanship, and that's where the money goes. I even got a magurokiri because it just looked badass except I've never used it as intended (I've never caught a tuna) and looks great as a wall-hanger in the kitchen. I've used the gyutos and debas extensively, and while they do retain their edges, they never cut anything hard. Not only that, you have to diligently rinse and wipe down after every use, put away oiled, etc. I touch them up on King whetstones with naguro slurry, and it's somewhat therapeutic if I have the time. It's great for when I have guests, lots of oohs and aahs especially when I break out the yanagiba when I slice sashimi or make sushi. They perform well for occasional use.

The new custom Magnacut Santoku I have from David Mary on the other hand, is used for almost everything in the kitchen, is pretty much maintenance-free, and I just lightly run it through a loaded strop when I feel it starting to lose that bite. It's also built exactly how I wanted it, from the bladestock, heat-treat, grind, handle material, and finish. It hasn't even seen a whetstone. Might get a Nakiri made next. I also have zero complaints about his AEB-L.

Getting back to the edge-holding and "razor-sharpness", there's a noticeable and desireable difference when it comes to using them and not thinking about everything else.

 

[ace]

AEB-L is very similar to 14C28N (closer to 13C27), great steel for kitchen knives IMO. Another thing to note is that heat treat might account for a lot of that difference; Shun has been criticized on that front before (I like mine despite that, though). I've heard that the 4116 steel and its analogs are particularly sensitive to heat treat, explaining why Wüsthofs perform better than the budget knives that use the same steel.



I don't have a single unified study but if you look into the BESS testing enthusiasts, they all seem to be able to replicate that result. I'd also say that when the differences become small enough, the results that someone like Larrin can measure scientifically become nearly imperceptible in actual use. Whereas the differences in ease of sharpening, while impossible to quantify, are very noticeable in real world use. Which essentially boils down to my original statement.

Yes, I know that's not the exact reason why honyakis are popular, hence why I edited that out of my post before you responded. It must have been after you grabbed the quote, though. My point was more that the value calculus for kitchen knives is very different than for pocket knives, and prioritizes ease of sharpening over edge retention. For instance, as nicely as a Sebenza is built, I don't imagine CRK would sell nearly as many of them right now if they used 420HC. Whereas with a honyaki, people appreciate the artistry and it doesn't even occur to anyone to gripe about the "basic" steel since it actually works really well in that setting.

Ease of sharpening of course goes to low alloy steels, there is no argument there. This can be somewhat mitigated by using appropriate abrasives such as diamond or CBN, but it is still easier to sharpen low alloy steels. My contention is only with the prevailing myth that there is no difference between high and low wear resistant steels when it comes to holding high sharpness. This is not the case and I haven't seen any convincing studies that would show this, the reason I am interested to see some. It also goes against my experience with high performance knives and specifically kitchen knives. Given 2 kitchen knives that are exactly the same except one in 1095 class or Japanese white class steels and another in AEB-L class, the one in AEB-L will hold its very sharp edge longer. If you made a third knife in MagnaCut, the very sharp edge would last even longer. This experiment could be done with more wear resistant steels and you would see the same trend as long as wear was the dulling mechanism. Now, it is possible that what you call razor sharp is in fact so sharp that it gets lost so fast that even though there might be a difference among different steels, that difference is lost in the noise, but discussing such high levels of sharpness is pointless since they are useless for normal use of knives and it also doesn't prove that the difference doesn't exist only that it is not important. At reasonable levels of high sharpness the differences among classes of steel exist and are measurable and observable by the end users. Many professional chefs that have tried knives in steels such as magnacut or zwear can attest to these knives holding a very sharp edge noticeably longer than similar knives in low alloy steels. This of course is not scientific, but it is interesting that it seems to be highly correlated to the CATRA results that Larrin saw.

Please don't misunderstand I am not advocating that one steel is better than the other or that high wear resistant steels are superior. It all depends on the application and user preferences. My only goal is to stop this myth that has been going around the internet for ages, since we have some evidence that it is not true. I would really like to see alternative studies or a convincing explanation of the mechanism that would substantiate the claim of no difference existing.

 

[MolokaiRider]

14c28n is the Goldilocks alloy in my opinion for most general uses.

 

[lambertiana]

14c28n at 62 hrc everytime over m390 at any hrc. Never had aebl or 14c28n chip like m390 in moderate or hard use. Excellent edge stability.

I'd be a lot more fond of 14c28n if we saw more of it in the 62-64 hrc range, as opposed to the 58-60 you generally see with budget folding knives.

The only 14C28 I have is from Kershaw, and they run it at 58-60. Who offers it at 62 or higher?

 

[SwissHeritageCo]

The only 14C28 I have is from Kershaw, and they run it at 58-60. Who offers it at 62 or higher?

Mainly custom makers, factories always run it soft. Makes me curious what the hrc of my mbk old guard is.

 

[Chronovore]

Mainly custom makers, factories always run it soft. Makes me curious what the hrc of my mbk old guard is.

This is totally unqualified at the end of a long day, but I seem to recall 61 being the sweet spot from charts and such. Also unqualified but I seem to recall some companies recently posting a target of 59-61, which is a little better than the standard 58-60 (or slightly softer that we've seen in the past).

As I mentioned previously, the 14C28N I have from Civivi has been better than average. I think I saw some punched closer to 60 HRC.

 

[Tsujigiri]

Ease of sharpening of course goes to low alloy steels, there is no argument there. This can be somewhat mitigated by using appropriate abrasives such as diamond or CBN, but it is still easier to sharpen low alloy steels. My contention is only with the prevailing myth that there is no difference between high and low wear resistant steels when it comes to holding high sharpness. This is not the case and I haven't seen any convincing studies that would show this, the reason I am interested to see some. It also goes against my experience with high performance knives and specifically kitchen knives. Given 2 kitchen knives that are exactly the same except one in 1095 class or Japanese white class steels and another in AEB-L class, the one in AEB-L will hold its very sharp edge longer. If you made a third knife in MagnaCut, the very sharp edge would last even longer. This experiment could be done with more wear resistant steels and you would see the same trend as long as wear was the dulling mechanism. Now, it is possible that what you call razor sharp is in fact so sharp that it gets lost so fast that even though there might be a difference among different steels, that difference is lost in the noise, but discussing such high levels of sharpness is pointless since they are useless for normal use of knives and it also doesn't prove that the difference doesn't exist only that it is not important. At reasonable levels of high sharpness the differences among classes of steel exist and are measurable and observable by the end users. Many professional chefs that have tried knives in steels such as magnacut or zwear can attest to these knives holding a very sharp edge noticeably longer than similar knives in low alloy steels. This of course is not scientific, but it is interesting that it seems to be highly correlated to the CATRA results that Larrin saw.

Please don't misunderstand I am not advocating that one steel is better than the other or that high wear resistant steels are superior. It all depends on the application and user preferences. My only goal is to stop this myth that has been going around the internet for ages, since we have some evidence that it is not true. I would really like to see alternative studies or a convincing explanation of the mechanism that would substantiate the claim of no difference existing.

I didn't say they're exactly the same, I said they're about the same, and in real world use the additional challenges in sharpening are much more apparent. You pointed at a single test that measured outside of the scope of discussion and showed a spread of data close enough that it might not be noticeable to most people. I think you're fixating on a single set of numbers so much that you can't see the forest for the trees; the conclusions drawn in that article aren't even as hardline as what you're claiming.

The part about keen edges isn't a myth and has served a lot of people well in real world use. Saying that's incorrect is kind of like saying people should walk backwards because a new study found that our knees have 3% more mechanical advantage in reverse. Even if that were true, you're not formulating a practical solution from the data.