15 Survival myths that can actually kill you

[sodak]

The Craighead brothers documented a grizzly running 50 yards in 3 seconds. From a standing start.

Here's one that woke up grumpy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QCZY6eUWVA

 

[Phoynix]

 

[heefageLA]

LOL. The guy with camera better pick up the pace!

 

[Codger_64]

Another canard I like is "Cotton kills!". No it doesn't. Stupidity does. Synthetics kill in certain circumstances. Or wool. Each material has attributes which makes it superior in a given environment.

 

[Woods Walker]

Another canard I like is "Cotton kills!". No it doesn't. Stupidity does. Synthetics kill in certain circumstances. Or wool. Each material has attributes which makes it superior in a given environment.

I think the reason for the cotton kills myth is many people wear cotton clothing all the time. It's bad in weather conditions most people in the live in. In extreme cold certain cotton garments are fantastic. They breath and block wind. There is no liquid water at far below zero. Heck sit in the snow and it powders off yea. But most people aren't on a dayhike/camping/hunting/fishing in the woods then. The small number which did get in trouble started the day warmer, then it got colder and rained. Now their Cotton T-shirt and Dockers are a dripping mess. It's a shame reading about people dying from exposure which could have been avoided with proper planning or even a little extra kit.

I know nothing of the desert. A cotton bandanna is really nice in summer.

 

[Codger_64]

I think the reason for the cotton kills myth is many people wear cotton clothing all the time. It's bad in weather conditions most people in the live in. In extreme cold certain cotton garments are fantastic. They breath and block wind. There is no liquid water at far below zero. Heck sit in the snow and it powders off yea. But most people aren't on a dayhike/camping/hunting/fishing in the woods then. The small number which did get in trouble started the day warmer, then it got colder and rained. Now their Cotton T-shirt and Dockers are a dripping mess. It's a shame reading about people dying from exposure which could have been avoided with proper planning or even a little extra kit.

I know nothing of the desert. A cotton bandanna is really nice in summer.

You got the meat of what I was saying. I grew up on a farm in the South. Cotton clothes were the rule rather than the exception. The fact that it breathes, does hold water and provides evaporative cooling was important in high heat and humidity. Plus it doesn't sustain fire if you get too close to the campfire. And it certainly does not melt and stick to one's skin like many synthetics do. A reason firefighters and welders seldom wear synthetics. Treated, it can be water repellant and still breathe. In some conditions however it can be a poor choice for garments. But one might as well state that synthetics kill if you have ever watched them peeled from the skin of a burn victim.

 

[Woods Walker]

You got the meat of what I was saying. I grew up on a farm in the South. Cotton clothes were the rule rather than the exception. The fact that it breathes, does hold water and provides evaporative cooling was important in high heat and humidity. Plus it doesn't sustain fire if you get too close to the campfire. And it certainly does not melt and stick to one's skin like many synthetics do. A reason firefighters and welders seldom wear synthetics. Treated, it can be water repellant and still breathe. In some conditions however it can be a poor choice for garments. But one might as well state that synthetics kill if you have ever watched them peeled from the skin of a burn victim.

Here is an interesting story. During a group winter camp out some years ago one of the guys got too drunk. We were testing a new Ti foil stove which Patrick Smith mailed down to us. The guy fell spread eagle into the stove than did snow angels in the flames and coals as people bailed out of the tipi. The carhartt overalls and jacket were basically unfazed. I bet if he was wearing micro fluffy puffy whatever it would have been nasty.

My cotton poncho.

 

[Shotgun]

Another canard I like is "Cotton kills!". No it doesn't. Stupidity does. Synthetics kill in certain circumstances. Or wool. Each material has attributes which makes it superior in a given environment.

Yep. I live in the PNW and when it's not raining I'm wearing cotton. I've tried nice synthetics in the summer and they just don't breathe. For me, wearing nylon pants/shirt in the summer is a miserable experience.

When I was doing SAR training we had to wear black jeans and the cotton "team" sweatshirt as our "uniform." This extended to the field time we had at a local lake. I wore polypro/wool socks, cotton jeans, cotton t shirt, cotton sweatshirt, cotton boony hat, and a nylon rain shell. We were out all day in drizzle moving through wet under brush. I was warm all day. I wouldn't recommend cotton for the rain, I don't use it anymore myself, but it just goes to show that the rule of thumbs is just a starting point for noobs.

 

[Jens Schuetz]

Is there any synthetic which can cool me better than wet cotton?
Seriously. I tried a lot of cool sounding summer/heat fabrics from different companies but all they do is keep me dry. I haven found any yet which makes me feel colder. Is my only option having to wear cotton and carry a bottle to wet it?

I'm quite often in India and here in Folsom it gets even hotter at times. Any helpful advice with regards to fabric which actually make you feel colder?

Thank you.

 

[Thomas Linton]

I think the reason for the cotton kills myth is many people wear cotton clothing all the time. It's bad in weather conditions most people in the live in. In extreme cold certain cotton garments are fantastic. They breath and block wind. There is no liquid water at far below zero.

Except on the verge of death from dehydration, if you are alive there is liquid water if the ambient temperature is below dew point. Period.

In "cold," warm moist air migrates out from your body until it reaches dew point and the water vapor turns to liquid water. (Blow on cold window glass to see the process.) One simple test is to wrap plastic around your sleeping bad on a chilly night and examine the results in the morning - a wet sleeping bag. As the condensate soaks into your layers, a cotton inner layer holds the wet against your skin as evaporation reduces temperature. What makes cotton acceptable in heat does the same in cold - cooling. Whether that "kills" is, as Codger relates, a matter of how clueless you are, and perhaps what resources you have.

(You may have read of the consequence of cotton uniforms for the German Army in the Winter of 1941-42. 100,000's of Chinese casualties in the Korean "Police Action" [June 1950 - ] were caused by the PLA's use of quilted cotton uniforms. [The tennis shoes didn't help.] U.S. troops were also wearing a lot of cotton and suffering as a result. The improved M1951 uniform was being developed when the "police action" broke out.)

 

[Codger_64]

Is there any synthetic which can cool me better than wet cotton?
Seriously. I tried a lot of cool sounding summer/heat fabrics from different companies but all they do is keep me dry. I haven found any yet which makes me feel colder. Is my only option having to wear cotton and carry a bottle to wet it?

I'm quite often in India and here in Folsom it gets even hotter at times. Any helpful advice with regards to fabric which actually make you feel colder?

Thank you.

Working construction in the South (Tennessee and Arkansas) I went to wearing "King Georges" in the summer. Dickies brand khackies. They are a cotton/polyester blend and have the best characteristics of both. Wet, they cool. Thin enough to dry fairly quickly. And fairly resistant to burning, though not as much as pure cotton. The khaki color (light tan) isn't too hot in direct sun like darker colors. It doesn't attract pesky insects like some brighter colors (red, yellow and blue mostly). Good reasons they were adopted for years by the British Empire for soldiers and adventurers.

 

[Woods Walker]

Except on the verge of death from dehydration, if you are alive there is liquid water if the ambient temperature is below dew point. Period.

Tom I gotta ask. Have you ever camped out in temps a good deal below zero?

 

[Thomas Linton]

Tom I gotta ask. Have you ever camped out in temps a good deal below zero?

I have tented out pretty much once a month in northern Ohio, western PA or southern Mi since 1981. Lowest temp on a campout was -23F.

Before, 1981, my camping was mostly in California, and while it gets cold enough to kill, it does nor get below 0F.

I did live in Stony Plane Alberta for eighteen months, but never camped out. Did walk to school every day in temps as low as -42F.

That -23F night was not as bad for some as the -17F next night due to loss of loft in down sleeping bags, including a Gore-Tex shelled job. Every bag I handled Sunday morning had ice inside them since the temperature was below freezing inside the shells.

"A small amount of perspiration is continually excreted by the sweat glands in the skin. The portion that evaporates before it may be observed also contributes to insensible perspiration. Also called insensible water loss."

The primary purpose of insensible perspiration is to keep your skin moist. So the drier it is, the more insensible perspiration results.

The reality of constant insensible and/or sensible perspiration was the reason for the vapor barrier liner ("VBL") boomlet years ago. The theory was that the vapor barrier would accomplish two things: 1) by raising the humidity near you, insensible perspiration would decrease; 2) the moisture from perspiration would not reach the insulation layers of your sleeping bag. I tried it. It was warmer, but I could never get to like the clammy feeling. VBL's are still available, although not from major companies.

One expedition to the North Pole had to have new sleeping bags dropped to them due to ice accumulation inside their bags. The ice was crushing the air out of the insulation.

Here's a study if you want the science in detail: https://arapahoeprepfair.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/frost-in-arctic-sleeping-bags-edited.pdf

Any article advocating VBL's will discuss the issue.

Obviously, breathing into the bag will make it much worse.

 

[Acetylene]

Good thought and discussion provoking original post.

 

[Codger_64]

Good thought and discussion provoking original post.

Agreed. Now use a razor blade and mouth suction on that snakebite! Quick!

 

[Thomas Linton]

A real Knife Knut would use a big chopper, Codger. You know - a real knife

 

[druid189]

Is there any synthetic which can cool me better than wet cotton?
Seriously. I tried a lot of cool sounding summer/heat fabrics from different companies but all they do is keep me dry. I haven found any yet which makes me feel colder. Is my only option having to wear cotton and carry a bottle to wet it?

I'm quite often in India and here in Folsom it gets even hotter at times. Any helpful advice with regards to fabric which actually make you feel colder?

Thank you.

https://www.underarmour.com/en-us/technology/armour/armourvent/tops/armourvent-world

I wear UnderArmour underneath my body armor. It brings perspiration to the top of that garment and when the wind catches that perspiration, gives you that "cooling effect" you are seeking. It works well for what I use it for.

 

[Jens Schuetz]

Working construction in the South (Tennessee and Arkansas) I went to wearing "King Georges" in the summer. Dickies brand khackies. They are a cotton/polyester blend and have the best characteristics of both. Wet, they cool. Thin enough to dry fairly quickly. And fairly resistant to burning, though not as much as pure cotton. The khaki color (light tan) isn't too hot in direct sun like darker colors. It doesn't attract pesky insects like some brighter colors (red, yellow and blue mostly). Good reasons they were adopted for years by the British Empire for soldiers and adventurers.

Oh that's the kind of mixed fabric they introduced in the german army when I served. Was actually quite good compared to the old moleskin.
A big difference showed in winter. Only about a quarter of us had the new flecktarn clothes. We were camping in -20C and everybody slept fully clothed in their sleeping bags. When we crawled out of the bags and had to wrap up the old type of cloth starting steaming and made us shiver a lot. The new ones didnt seem so bad by a big margin.
Yeah one shouldn't sleep with full clothes but if everything gotta be Zack Zack then there's no time. It almost felt like the bones were hurting were there weren't any muscles covering them.
Once marching again it got better after about half an hour.
If they are good in summer too I gotta try something similar again.
Thank you.

The coolest "cloth" I've seen was last weekend in Chabot Space centers. Astronauts apperently wear a garment with a network of pipes woven in, under their suit. Depending on environment it pumps cool or hot liquid through there.
Some scaled down version of that would be great in summer. Shouldn't be that hard to build. Pump, pipes, water in a thermos and the flow rate determines how cold it gets.

 

[Woods Walker]

I have tented out pretty much once a month in northern Ohio, western PA or southern Mi since 1981. Lowest temp on a campout was -23F.

Before, 1981, my camping was mostly in California, and while it gets cold enough to kill, it does nor get below 0F.

I did live in Stony Plane Alberta for eighteen months, but never camped out. Did walk to school every day in temps as low as -42F.

That -23F night was not as bad for some as the -17F next night due to loss of loft in down sleeping bags, including a Gore-Tex shelled job. Every bag I handled Sunday morning had ice inside them since the temperature was below freezing inside the shells.

"A small amount of perspiration is continually excreted by the sweat glands in the skin. The portion that evaporates before it may be observed also contributes to insensible perspiration. Also called insensible water loss."

The primary purpose of insensible perspiration is to keep your skin moist. So the drier it is, the more insensible perspiration results.

The reality of constant insensible and/or sensible perspiration was the reason for the vapor barrier liner ("VBL") boomlet years ago. The theory was that the vapor barrier would accomplish two things: 1) by raising the humidity near you, insensible perspiration would decrease; 2) the moisture from perspiration would not reach the insulation layers of your sleeping bag. I tried it. It was warmer, but I could never get to like the clammy feeling. VBL's are still available, although not from major companies.

One expedition to the North Pole had to have new sleeping bags dropped to them due to ice accumulation inside their bags. The ice was crushing the air out of the insulation.

Here's a study if you want the science in detail: https://arapahoeprepfair.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/frost-in-arctic-sleeping-bags-edited.pdf

Any article advocating VBL's will discuss the issue.

Obviously, breathing into the bag will make it much worse.

Good. I hate talking to keyboard jockeys. If that was the case here I would have not bothered responding. I am no expert at anything but the internet is full of people who don't do anything rather lecture others using information acquired from.....You guessed it the internet. Often this information is factually right but hopelessly out of context. Internet only knowledge look great on the surface but like a road side puddle it lacks depth. Here is what I wrote:

I think the reason for the cotton kills myth is many people wear cotton clothing all the time. It's bad in weather conditions most people in the live in. In extreme cold certain cotton garments are fantastic. They breath and block wind. There is no liquid water at far below zero. Heck sit in the snow and it powders off yea. But most people aren't on a dayhike/camping/hunting/fishing in the woods then. The small number which did get in trouble started the day warmer, then it got colder and rained. Now their Cotton T-shirt and Dockers are a dripping mess. It's a shame reading about people dying from exposure which could have been avoided with proper planning or even a little extra kit.

I know nothing of the desert. A cotton bandanna is really nice in summer.

I don't understand your response based on what I fully wrote, not just the one liner you put in quotes. I clearly stated cotton breaths in extreme cold. What exactly does it breath? Duck sauce? I also know about ice build up in sleeping bags etc etc etc. Again the duck sauce thing.

Here is what matters. It's 36F and raining. Why are my hands turning red? Why am I concerned?



It's the liquid water all around me. It's dripping off everything. The snow is slush. It penetrates everything. It sucks the life out of you. It's a nightmare. You're wet inside and out.

Ok now why am I tossing my down sleeping bag into the snow without concern?



Because there is no liquid water threat. The snow sticks to nothing. Go out in the woods and come back with a cup of liquid water in extreme cold. It actually can be done but it's going to be work or luck. Better take along a thermos as well so it won't freeze. This is why 36F with rain can put the hurt on more than -36F. The pervasive abundance of liquid water. My post makes it clearly obvious perspiration is known by me. I got no clue why your response was what it was. Also I don't know about tennis shoes in Korea. Why do people online know so much about everything under the sun. I mean does anyone in real life know as much as people do online? Not busting on you about this as for I know you're a history buff but dang!

On a side note I agree it doesn't take extreme cold to kill. That should be added to the myth list. Cold and wet is just evil.

 

[Thomas Linton]

My point, poorly put I am sure, is that, despite what you said and have said again, there is always liquid water - somewhere - if we are talking about garments that you wear, including sleeping bags. In extreme cold, you perspire to keep your skin moist even if not from exercise or excess insulation. The water vapor migrates out until it reaches an area where it condenses into liquid water - the "dew point." The cited article documents and discusses this effect at length.
The water needs to be managed, as I am sure you know.

Cotton absorbs that inevitable perspiration in extreme cold (as does down). If the cotton is against your skin, that's bad. Hence, most everyone thinks cotton is bad in cold weather. If the loft in your down bag collapses, that is also bad.

Cotton might, however, be better as an outer layer than Gore-Tex in extreme cold 'cause the lil' holes in Gore-Tex freeze shut and you are wearing a plastic bag. I wear a moderately water-repellent nylon "Mountain Parka" as my outer layer in extreme cold. Like the cotton you mention, it still breaths and helps reduce condensation inside the layers. The U.S. military finally figured out what you know and went back to a very breathable outer layer for extreme cold. They had used it starting in 1951 but got all excited about the latest and greatest with ECWCS I and II and wasted a lot of Other Peoples' Money on poorly functioning Gore-Tex outer layers for extreme cold. Turns out the old way was better.

36F and rain is the pits. 25F is much nicer. Drier, as you say.

Once before, when I raised the PLA use of cotton and the resulting casualties, someone posted that their use of tennis shoes was even worse. Trying to be accurate.

There are low barriers to entry on line. Information there runs the entire range. Before the Internet, people wrote books with misinformation, like compasses having a steel needle that points at a big deposit of magnetic metal near the North Pole. And there was TV. Look at Da' bear jumping out of a tall tree instead of using all the hundreds of feet of parachute line he had in that scenario. Misinformation seems to be a human constant.

As for knowing so much about everything, I clearly do not. I never post at all in a good many sub-forums here. I do not post on the many, many topics about which I know little or nothing, such as fly fishing, hunting in general, or wood carving. Except to ask a few questions. On the other hand, I have been very interested in wilderness survival since 1961 and taught military history, so you get insensible perspiration and PLA in cotton clothing. Sorry if you find that irritating.