.....

Joe definitely has some very valid reasoning behind his choice of a plain edge over a serrated one, but IMHO I think he is the exception. While we all aspire to attain his proficiency at sharpening, I will bet that most of us, myself included, cannot get our plain edges to the same slicing performance level as our serrated ones. For pure matter serparation using a slicing motion, a serrated edge will beat out a plain edge in almost every scenario I have used a folder in.

Now, with that said, I like a plain edge because, I can give up the slicing efficiency for better looks, and ease of sharpening. In my mind, there are other factors that make knife ownership and use enjoyable. In other words, for me, a good knife is not only a decent performer, but looks good and is easy to maintain.

Maybe one day, I can be an edge honing master like Joe and have it all.

Aloha
 
Serations open you up much easier. In a balisong even the best catches the blade once in a while. Sometimes you can catch a plain edge with no damage - the impact was spread out along the blade. Try the same trick with serrations and you get cut because the impact is concentrated at each tip of the serration.

Still, any bali I buy is serrated. :)
 
A fully serrated "tactical" style knife works best for me (after much trial and error), coupled with a quality traditional. The DMT diamond hones keep the serrations sharp. BTW, thanks for posting, Joe T.; I generally print out your posts.
 
[Try hacking doen some limbs...]

Funny you mention that. A while back, two pals and I were on our way to a training session and witnessed a wreck occur in front of us on I-49. A fire started in the grassy median, around a vehicle which had a pinned individual inside.

We were in a fleet motor pool Suburban, and naturally the fire extinguisher was as dead as Hillary's libido. We hadn't even had the chance to call it in yet, and there was no telling how long it would take a fire truck to get there. None of the other ghouls who stopped to gawk had a fire extinguisher, either. Okay, time for Plan B.

The three of us ran across the w/b lanes to where some scrub pine was, and proceeded to "hack off" some bushy limbs to beat the fire out with. Two of us had fully-serrated Enduras, and had a nice fistful of suitable limbs in just a moment. The third guy had a plain edge BM CQC7, and he had to gnaw awhile to get just a couple of adequately-sized limbs (the fire had gotten pretty large).

Sorry, SharpenedPrybar; BTDT. For raw cutting ability, give me a serrated edge any day. All three of us are quite anal about keeping our blades sharp, so that wasn't a factor. The light-duty serrated knives simply outcut the alledgely heavier-duty plain edge.

el cid, I hear you re combo blades. In fact, I'm working on securing a Spyderco Wegner with combo blade as we speak. But to tell you the truth, I use the screwdriver and other gadgets on the SAK more than I do the knife blades, so it will continue to accompany me.

Steve
 
There's an important distinction to be made here: the difference between chopping and sawing. A serrated edge sure is going to be better for sawing than a blade with no teeth.

If I you gave me the choice of two Cold Steel Trailmasters, one with a serrated edge and one without (granted, they don't make a serrated trailmaster, do they?) and told me, go chop down that sapling, I'd take the plain edge for "hacking." If you told me, go saw down that sapling, I'd want the serrated edge.
 
Well, I must be missing it (the point). In the given example (which one of you guys initiated, BTW), the object was to separate the limbs from the tree as quickly as possible. A pocket folder is a bit light on mass for chopping, wouldn't you say???

Whatever...
 
I just don't like the way serrations look. Plus I find them harder to sharpen and find that I can cut just fine without them.
 
I was looking for the areas where plain edge beats serrated edge, just so I don't overlook anything.
Click to expand...

This clearly shows he not only has as interest in serrated verses plain edged folders, but serrated verses plain edges in general.

Steve C Well, I must be missing it (the point). In the given example (which one of you guys initiated, BTW), the object was to separate the limbs from the tree as quickly as possible. A pocket folder is a bit light on mass for chopping, wouldn't you say???
Click to expand...

Yes, I totally agree with you, a folding knife lacks enough mass to make it an effective chopper. The point of the matter is that plain edges excel at some tasks that serrated edges have a problem with. Plain and simple. Since we are talking about knives in general and not folders specifically, I myself can chop branches off a tree much faster with a plain edged RTAK, cause after a few good chops into hard knots the serrated version of this knife(no such thing, example used strictly to aid in the understanding of my arguement) is going to bend or lose it's edge in the wood; this especially applies when you are torquing the knife in the wood. Hope this helps.
 
Oh, I have no doubt that a plain edge would chop better than a serrated one, as well as would withstand that sort of activity better without getting trashed; you'll get no argument from me there.

MY point was that one usually has to make do with what he has attached to his gear (or in his pocket); and I haven't carried a serious fixed blade knife, except on SWAT ops, since I got out of the army 23 years ago. IOW, that serrated Endura blade came in handy when I really needed it. The guy with the plain edge didn't do so well.

Interesting discussion... take care.

Steve
 
Serrated is almost worthless for whittling/woodcarving. Carving wood is what I do most with my knives and serrated is not the best.
 
Originally posted by Steve C


You've obviously never used a Spyderco SharpMaker, Raver
Steve
Click to expand...

Have one, use it every day. My plain edges only take about six strokes per side on the flats of the coarse stones, I don't let them get too dull. I very seldom use the white stones. I seem to get better performance out of a "working edge". It will still shave hair. I don't do a lot of push cuts. I guess I'm just not patient enough to sharpen serrations, even on the Sharpmaker. I don't mind sharpening a plain edge every day, but making sure I don't miss any grooves in serrations makes me crazy.
 
Joe have you considered the direction of motion involved in cutting? Cutting always involves pushing into the material. This will mean that more than half of the arc will be used in cutting. If you were to push cut with the serrated edge all of the arc would be used eventually used. Also, material cut is compressible and will spring back and contact the unused arc of the serration.

Will
 
Originally posted by utmts4me
Joe,
What do you mean exactly by "sharpen the plain edge more thinly" and can you say more about how you have your 710 tuned that cuts so nicely? I am eager to learn more techniques and nuances to edge sharpenning. Thanks
Click to expand...

Sure. I've discussed why I think serrations work so well -- the curved format itself provides advantage in some types of cutting. But there's another reason serrations work well: serrations are usually chisel-ground into the blade. That is, they are ground in on only one side. As a result, the total edge angle on a serrated edge might be no more than 20 degrees. Plain edges are often sharpened at 20-25 degrees per side, for a total of 40-50 degrees. There's no way such a thick-ground plain edge can hope to even remotely compete with a serrated edge.

As a result, the first thing I do is thin down my plain edges as much as possible. Well-tempered ATS-34 can take going down to close to 15 degrees per side (with a quick 20-degree double-grind on top) even for reasonably hard use. With an edge like that, performance is increased hundreds of percents (literally).

The other downside of plain edges is slicing ability can be bad on hard objects. A razor-polished plain edge won't "bite" into hard poly rope, it'll skitter across the top ineffectively. But if you run that plain edge across a coarse DMT hone a couple times, the edge roughs up, and now it can bite into the rope and actually slice it.

So, the first rule for performance: get your edge as thin and coarse as possible for maximum slicing performance.

My Benchmade 710 Axis plain-edge, which has the further advantage of being recurved, outslices a serrated endura in har d poly rope. The endura slice through nicely, but it ripps and binds as it goes. The 710 slices more deeply.

Which brings about one other point. When talking about something like rope, it is very easy to get caught up in "slicing", and to forget that simply getting the rope in two parts is the real objective. It may be that in strictly slicing tests, the serrated edge might outslice a tuned plain edge. BUT, it is always most effective to push-cut rope in two, rather than slicing it, if possible. My 710 doesn't beat my endura at cutting rope just because it's a better slicer. Strictly speaking, my 710 will probably not completely outslice an endura. But while I'm slicing, I'm also push-cutting my 710 through the rope, which is possible because of the thin edge grind. This isn't possible with a serrated edge -- you're doing pure slicing, and if you try to push-cut, it just binds. Take advantage of your high-performance plain-edge geometry by adding some push-cutting, and you might find your plain edge pulling ahead, just like I did. Now, cut the rope the way most people do in the real world: instead of laying it down, loop it in your hand and cut from there. Now, the serrations bind even worse, and your plain edge push cuts even better.

Of course, I've taken us a little off track, concentrating so much on rope slicing. Not everyone slices a lot of rope. More often, I think everyday knives are called upon to do things like slice cardboard, to break it down for recycling. I know some of you are experiencing better performance with serrated edges here, but my experience is, a well-tuned plain edge blows serrations away. With cardboard, again, the more push-cutting that's done, the better, and so the slicing ability of a serrated blade is completely negated by a plain edge's push-cutting ability, once you get the edge thin enough to push cut successfully.

Joe
 
Too each his own.Me I like 50/50 blades,they work for me.:) As i've said in other posts on this topic I use 50/50 for a lot of tasks just fine thank you and don't have the problem of "not enough of either plain or serrated".

I've gutted countless deer and found serrated or 50/50 work just fine.

I have a heavily landscaped yard and am always working in it, again 50/50 just great.

On the job as a firefighter/emt ditto.

Helping my co-worker roof on the side,just don't have trouble with serrations or 50/50

I dont't know I camp,canoe,powerboat,gun hunt, bow hunt,use knives at work to cut everything from electric cords to rope to cardboard to rags to clothes,tar paper,mattresses,sofas and on and on.I use knives all around the house and yard and imho I don't see a drawback to serrations or 50/50 blades for MY use.

If you have trouble sharpening pencils,opening mail and peeling fruit with a serrated blade maybe you should buy a pencil sharpener,letter opener and a fruit knife.
:D :D :D
 
I actually find sharpening pencils with a serrated edge very easy, you just use one of the serrated recurves. :D
Jim
 
Hey Joe,
Yeah, I see what you're saying. I really never thought about the "using only one side of the serration" aspect...good food for thought.
Still, I think that is really a matter of "cutting technique" rather than edge design.
I also can push-cut with my Rescue with no problem, so I don't think that's a factor.
Either way, this topic has been discussed plenty on the forum and it always comes down to personal preference. Luckily, I like both plain and serrated edges.

Good luck,
Allen.
 
Originally posted by Will Kwan
Joe have you considered the direction of motion involved in cutting? Cutting always involves pushing into the material. This will mean that more than half of the arc will be used in cutting. If you were to push cut with the serrated edge all of the arc would be used eventually used. Also, material cut is compressible and will spring back and contact the unused arc of the serration.

Will
Click to expand...

Will, I have considered that push-cutting is involved. However, I don't believe that serrated and non-serrated push-cutting is directly analgous. In non-serrated push-cutting, I'm pushing straight down into the material, and even if I stop slicing, the knife can continue to separate the material. With a serrated edge, you must keep a very high percentage of slicing motion, or the knife simply binds up -- and binding up means, nothing is cutting. As a result, I believe (but haven't proven) that serrated performance happens because of penetration at the points, plus slicing along the front of the arc, and any downward push-cutting effect is minimal. So I believe the back part of the scallops are moving in the wrong direction to cut, and probably supplying minimal push-cutting help. I see your point though, there will be some downward pressure. It would be easy enough to test this: if I can find a serrated blade I'm willing to sacrifice (and I'm talking about spyderco-styele serrations, not benchmade-style reverse serrations), I'll try lightly filing the back of the serrations and see how much the performance changes.

Also, if I can remember, I will bring a sharp serrated endura, some poly rope and cardboard, and a couple of hand-tuned plain edge knives to the bay area get-together we're trying to put together for early September, and let some other people see for themselves and comment about serrated vs plain edge differences.

Joe
 
I cant just stand by and watch this discussion. I have tried to figure out why serrations are supposed to be so good for cutting cardboard. I used to work in a grocery store, and I broke down boxes every day for the crusher. My plain edge knives worked fine. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a zipper cut is when one lays the edge of the knife against the material at a slight angle and just pulls it through with hardly any slicing motion. If this is a zipper cut, then that worked every time, even when the blade was a little dull. Granted, I kept the angle fairly low, less than 50 degrees total. A friend loned me a 1/2 serrated blade once when I left my knife at home. The smooth portion was dull and wouldnt cut anything, and the serrated portion took longer for me. Its possible that I just wasnt used to it and didnt know how to use it to advantage. My primary knife at the time was a Buck Scoutlite with finger grooves and 3" blade. Not the most high tech steel, but it only required sharpening about every week.
 
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