18" And 28 Ounces

Here's the only other cross section pic I can think of right offhand, one Simon posted. The chop marks are faint but I can't see that it's a lot different than this oak I chopped. Simon's is at the top

2005-06-25_191959_WWIIFinished.jpg


chopage2.jpg
 
Hollow, you and I both know there is only so much the tool is going to do, and one's strength beyond that is useless and even dangerous.



munk
 
OOps- you guys-

This is really divided into a further subject; downed hard wood or green wood.

I mostly chop downed hard. I fell dead standing and some green standing.

Maybe a real wood expert could weigh in here, but if one was going to be tackling seasoned, hardened wood, I'd think a nice convex edge would be a minimum requirement, and not the more slender sabre grinds.



munk
 
munk said:
Hollow, you and I both know there is only so much the tool is going to do, and one's strength beyond that is useless and even dangerous.
munk
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What do you mean? I don't understand what you are getting at?
 
munk said:
OOps- you guys-

This is really divided into a further subject; downed hard wood or green wood.

I mostly chop downed hard. I fell dead standing and some green standing.

Maybe a real wood expert could weigh in here, but if one was going to be tackling seasoned, hardened wood, I'd think a nice convex edge would be a minimum requirement, and not the more slender sabre grinds.



munk
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Slender convex grinds are better on hard wood. I don't know about the Simon pic, but both the pine and the oak I cut were dry.

Let's compare.

This pine you sent me a pic of I posted a appears to be similar in size and seasoning to the pine I posted. Why not go out and cut it, send me the pic, and we'll compare the depth of the cuts?:thumbup:

BDCll011.jpg
 
If you swing harder than the edge geometry/weight distribution/length of a specific khuk's optimum 'force field', you are chopping in a dangerous manner. I've seen time and time again how more force does not neccesarily equal more cutting or chopping power. WE could of course blow this up to the fantastic, (much like a political discussion) and fire our khuk out of a cannon at some material in order to proove me wrong and show that a khuk will cut deeper with more force.

Technique. The khuk teaches the owner what cutting/chopping technique it best for that tool with a specific material to be chopped.
The same tool will behave differently with different woods.

munk
 
Hollow- I got to go pick up my kid from school. But doesn't a slender convex grind with hard wood wear out faster and fail? IT may cut 'better' initially, but you are asking a lot out of a knife blade to chop seasoned, hardened wood. I'd prefer a blunter convex edge both for lengevity and safety.

You know who we need? (Besides Cliff Stamp) an old axe man to weigh in now.


munk
 
munk said:
Hollow- I got to go pick up my kid from school. But doesn't a slender convex grind with hard wood wear out faster and fail? IT may cut 'better' initially, but you are asking a lot out of a knife blade to chop seasoned, hardened wood. I'd prefer a blunter convex edge both for lengevity and safety.

You know who we need? (Besides Cliff Stamp) an old axe man to weigh in now.


munk
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Munk,

Pix or.....;)

No the slender edge retains it's edge better because it has less resistance. Also produces less shock to the arm.;)
 


in this here picture we have: 17.5 inch 29 ounce Ganga Ram by kumar. it was cutting quite nicely despite the wood being oak and slightly seasoned.

a smaller blade: 16 inch 21 ounce horn handle villager Ganga Ram by Bura (i think) though in some ways a touch sharper, wasn't going anyway on that felled tree. yeah, i could have spent time on it, but it would've taken all day, and woud've hurt. maybe it was the horn handle?

the larger GRS just went thunk thunk, good loose grip, very little if any deflection. the little guy? great at limbing and softer woods but at this particular task, uh, no. since there's a goodly bit left of that log, and others here and there, i'll probably go out and test things. i have a machaxe that's old old but new to me that needs some wood, a BAS i haven't even touched up yet, and BDC that's cherry sweet and too pretty to chop with. have to think about that one ;) i don't think the kobra is up to the challenge. at all :P

bladite
 
I'm back through the snow storm with the oldest boy and all are home safe from school.

couple more variables;

Heavier tools impact differently than lighter tools traveling at faster speeds. I'm not an engineer and they can't seem to completely agree upon the same subject when it regards projectiles such as bullets: large diameter relatively modest speed VS smaller diameter, lighter weight bullet/projectile at higher speed.

I will note from my amatuer's bench though that with all the high velocity extra case capacity cartridges available, it is still hard to 'improve' much upon say a typical 3006 180 bullet traveling at 2800 fps.

We could compare to baseball bats too.
There is a 'fat' part of the bell curve of averages where tool dimensions are most productive relative to use and user.

But anyway, if one is cutting hard wood limbs off a trunk, every time you imbed the blade in the wood the wood bites back; it recoils from the impact and comes back. This puts all kinds of incalculable pressure on the edge, doesn't it, because you're edge is not uniformly engaged in the cutting material. ????

I think after 500 years of making khuks that work, the Kamis know what they are doing. I think expense has limited some of the past design parameters because of the cost of metal. With today's modern spring steels, HI kamis are putting out some of the finest survival, wood hawking, martial arts tools available.

We can talk forever about it but I think they do it right within all the variations of size, weight, edge and material cut. That is what my hand tells me when I swing an HI khuk into wood.

edit; yes Hollow- that is what I'm getting at too- a slimmer smaller khuk will impart less damage to itself as it does its task, but for a khuk to be used for a particular job we have to know what is being cut, where and how. If the edge is too thin it will fail. There is a balance and our Kamis seem to know where that balance is......
munk
 
Bladite said:


in this here picture we have: 17.5 inch 29 ounce Ganga Ram by kumar. it was cutting quite nicely despite the wood being oak and slightly seasoned.

a smaller blade: 16 inch 21 ounce horn handle villager Ganga Ram by Bura (i think) though in some ways a touch sharper, wasn't going anyway on that felled tree. yeah, i could have spent time on it, but it would've taken all day, and woud've hurt. maybe it was the horn handle?

the larger GRS just went thunk thunk, good loose grip, very little if any deflection. the little guy? great at limbing and softer woods but at this particular task, uh, no. since there's a goodly bit left of that log, and others here and there, i'll probably go out and test things. i have a machaxe that's old old but new to me that needs some wood, a BAS i haven't even touched up yet, and BDC that's cherry sweet and too pretty to chop with. have to think about that one ;) i don't think the kobra is up to the challenge. at all :P

bladite
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Good pic! Do you have a pic of anything thicker than that, say 6" or more completely cut?
 
hollowdweller said:
Good pic! Do you have a pic of anything thicker than that, say 6" or more completely cut?
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not yet. that was my test drive of sharpening from dead dull (the polishing i suppose) - couldn't cut butter with it ;P to much sharper than thumb sucking a cut :> i want to take at least another quality hour on the blade again with my custom convex system and 100 to 2000 grit, polish it up and so on... i also want to sand the handle a bit and oil it - should be prettier no? i'm at a loss how to get in those grooves though.

then i'll have to find a 6, 8, 10, 12 inch falled oak, and various pines. i expect this to eat pine and cedar like breakfast. maybe maple and birch too.

bladite
 
Thanks, Bladite.

Hollow, I too take a wide swath as I cut. I don't try to make a narrow, picture perfect angle, but the broader one is easier and faster. Wastes just a little more wood.


munk
 
munk said:
edit; yes Hollow- that is what I'm getting at too- a slimmer smaller khuk will impart less damage to itself as it does its task, but for a khuk to be used for a particular job we have to know what is being cut, where and how. If the edge is too thin it will fail. There is a balance and our Kamis seem to know where that balance is......
munk
Click to expand...

Right. My 18" AK that Yvsa put a hair shaving but steeper edge convex edge on for me cut well but where there was more resistance due to the steeper edge, the handle cracked off:confused: Couldn't take the strain.

I don't agree with you about the edge failing if it is too thin, I have very thin machetes that I have cut very hard thick stuff with and they stick, but they don't bend. That FF I got has a pretty thin edge, but it doesn't bend. All the khuks I have bent have been because the edge was too SOFT. A hard thin edge might chip, or even crack like this hatchet I had. but not break.

I do agree with you about what is being cut. For instance my AK bowie, 17" Ganga Ram and 15" Ganga Ram cut lots of stuff before I finally ran into the kind of wood that bent them. True if they were that soft and had a steeper edge they would have just dulled severely instead.

On the other hand my original Huge FF had a steep edge. It never bent even though it was soft. What it would do is the soft part would flatten out on extended chopping, and when you held it up to the light you could see it. It was almost like he missed a small section with the teapot:eek:

I had another khuk that was the exact opposite. Part of that khuk was super hard. So hard in fact that after extensive use it chipped off.

hollowdweller_gbsnap.jpg
 
munk said:
What are machettes made from?
munk
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metal :)

probably 1095 for good ones, whatever was handy and beat on a rock if not. though the modern stuff could be anything you want. 56100, talonite, a2, r2d2 :)

bladite
 
How does the heat treat and metal of a machette compare to that of a spring steel khukuri?

(this is all off of Hollow's opinion that his machettes 'prove' a thinner profile edge can take abuse. They can. But machettes typically are used for clearing vegitation in a jungle, on a trail, not for chopping hard, seasoned wood. Men use axes for wood. )


munk
 
We're on the same page, Hollow- just two wood hawkers trying to figure stuff out.


I've noticed you can get the job done with big and large, and smaller, slighter, and lighter.

munk
 
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