1980-81-82 110 Transition Issues--Joe H?

BG42EDGE

BG42EDGE

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This got in as a rabbit-trail on another thread and maybe it merits more discussion.

Buck 110 said:

The 425M blades are .120" thick, as are all blades from 1981 forward.
The 440C blades are .115" thick; except for the 1st Version, which are .085" thick.
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Would that be the only difference or would there be shape differences as well?

And, if the thickness is the only difference.....has anyone ever found a .115" (440C) blade stamped with four dots? Or the reverse--a .120" blade with three dots?

If not.....why not? Should some exist?

Anyone else have any questions or answers on this time period?

Joe?

(These may be ridiculous questions to the experts, but there may be some others besides myself who could benefit from hearing a little more about this topic......it seems a gray area.)

(Also......I know it will all eventually be in your book, Joe......but could we get it here first?) :)

:confused:


I'd also like to know how the Three-Dot nail nicks were done. Some are remarkably similar and distinctive and some are quite different.

Were these all done free-hand so that we could expect they would be mostly different?

Why do some Three-Dots look like the third dot was added later by a much heavier hand?
 
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Yeah......well, I'll post something quite interesting tomorrow......before noon.

;)
 
Here it is......

BrEMGCQBGkKGrHqEH-CEEunYFyMzqBLy-1.jpg


Now......is that a fascinating bit of actual evidence, or what?

First I've ever seen.

Discussion?

:thumbup:
 
Let me take a stab at this. In the previous thread my use of "clear" refered to inventory clearing the plant. The nail nicks were probably machined in a fixture. So at the time they were machined they were probably pretty uniform but not perfect, as were the tang stamps. However, after heat treating the blades were ground then hand finished. Thus, depending on the amount of material removed and the consistency of the material removed in subsequent operations the shape of the nail nick and the depth of the "dots" could vary. The tang stamps are built in one piece. They are not done in a hand operation. So any variation is probably a result of material removal on the surface. Hope that helps.
 
Thanks, Richard..........questions:

Can you give me the most probable sequence of events for 440C 110 blades? Meaning what was done first, second, etc. Nick, stamp, heat treat, etc.

Can you explain a bit more in detail about what "machined in a fixture" would mean in the 440C?

Then......what, if anything, in the process or sequence of events changed with the use of 425M?

Thanks.
 
I think it has been stated that there most likely were parts/components (blades) unknown and sitting in inventory for long periods of time. These were most likely used up when someone found some old parts sitting around, I would think that is not uncommon in this type of manufacturing process.

For the sake of this conversation how about this 3 dot 112

It was made by Buck in 2009 at the Idaho plant. Extreme tang stamp year variation I know. However, you get the point I'm trying to make, right?
 
So, we have a 3 dot in late 1981 ... This gives credence to Richard and George S. findings and subsequent statements on those being thru 1981 . Realize the Weiser wording would have been put on those blades a few months prior to Nov.. Still, this prompts some thought . Thus the 4 dots would have to be of 1982 mfg.. DM
 
It was made by Buck in 2009 at the Idaho plant. Extreme tang stamp year variation I know. However, you get the point I'm trying to make, right?
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Right, I do.

But I'm still interested in all the details I can get about the transition that took place starting in 1980......and gathering as many parts and pieces of the puzzle that I can.

With every day that goes by, information is lost forever.
 
David Martin said:
So, we have a 3 dot in late 1981 ... This gives credence to Richard and George S. findings and subsequent statements on those being thru 1981 . Realize the Weiser wording would have been put on those blades a few months prior to Nov.. Still, this prompts some thought . Thus the 4 dots would have to be of 1982 mfg.. DM
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Or they were making Four-Dotters and Three-Dotters at the same time.....

Prompting another asking of one of my other questions.....were both made with both 440C and 425M?

Maybe Richard can tell us more.
 
BG42EDGE said:
Or they were making Four-Dotters and Three-Dotters at the same time.....

Prompting another asking of one of my other questions.....were both made with both 440C and 425M?

Maybe Richard can tell us more.
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Knives yes (old parts ...), Blades no (....). Think outside of the box folks:rolleyes:
jb4570
 
I can't even think INside the box until I get my questions answered.

Too much information is still lacking.
 
All stamping and machining must be done prior to heat treat regardless of material. After heat treat the steel is too hard. After heat treat the steel can only be ground or LASER cut economically. There are other specialized operations that could be performed but not on a high production basis. Machined in a fixture means that the blade is secured (in a fixture) so the milling of the nail nick can take place. A fixture enables you to mount blade after blade in the same location with every set up of the milling cutter in the milling machine. Because Buck mills a lot of blades the milling machine may be a dedicated machine designed just for that purpose or it may be a general purpose mill such as a Bridgeport mill. Hope that helps.
 
Helps a lot. So when doing a nail nick, would each worker make his own settings and turn out a unique nail nick that would be uniform, but with a shape slightly different from most nail nicks done by other workers?

Would he come back to the same equipment each day set to his own standards? Or might he just choose from among several work stations and perhaps make adjustments that would result in a different shaped nail nick?

Would he possibly make adjustments each day that could change the shape of that nail nick?
 
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Richard, Thanks . I've seen a Bridgeport Mill at Buck's new plant . To emphasize Richard's point about "hard" after heat treated: I once drilled a simple 1/8" hole in a 425M steel (-) blade on my wife's knife . So, she could have a thumb stud . It required "15" cobalt drill bits, all I had in my inventory and a lot of oil to get her a thumb stud on that blade . Those bits and shipping ran me 50$ . A labor of love, I can tell you !! I never told her, I just brought it out finished . Here, you are dear . DM
 
David, I really do want to benefit from the knowledge and information that Richard has been providing here, so could we stay on track?

Your amazing story of the near impervious knife and the many drill bits is interesting and worthy enough to be an entirely new thread, you should try that.

:)
 
Take a look at the kick(edge side of the ricasso). It is angled with square edges. You'll notice on four dot knives that the kick is curvy, rather than angled. You'll also notice that the edges of the kick on four dot knives do not have such profound, 90 degree edges either.
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That's real helpful. I've been hoping to hear some ways to set the 440C 110 blade apart from the 425M 110 blade (other than the dots, I mean).

Are there any other shape changes like that to differentiate between 440C to 425M in the 110?

I'm curious to know if there's a way to determine if 440c Four-Dotters exist......or vice-versa--425M Three-Dotters (if such a thing is even possible).

If a manufacturer's catalog is in the public's hands at the beginning of a calendar year, and it is showing new models, they HAD to be produced the year prior.
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In the case of this pictured Weiser 110 above, was the blade likely produced in 1980 as has been the common wisdom in the posting on this forum?
 
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