Actually, the lawmakers have created this environment. Lawyers may be abusing flaws in the laws, but they don´t make them.
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1st time in TN (CRKT M16-02Z)
- Thread starter chacodude
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Actually, the lawmakers have created this environment. Lawyers may be abusing flaws in the laws, but they don´t make them.
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I think it's a combination of liability and looking out for their employees. The venue I go to for shows used to just pat you down and that would be it. But about 6 or 7 years ago there was a fight in the parking lot that security were trying to break up and one of them got stabbed. IMMEDIATELY after that it was a pat down AND they run the wand over you now, also no chain wallets or heavy/large belt buckles. And after Dimebag from Pantera was shot on stage I think every venue/club changed their rules.
Tom,
I always enjoy reading your perspective on legal issues, but I must disagree here.
If the bouncers are employees of the club, the club is vicariously liable for whatever they do. Even if the bouncers are independent contractors (ie., hired by the club from a bouncer service to work the doors) the club is vicariously liable for their actions since the bouncers were acting as agents of the club with apparent authority. Therefore, the scheme of avoiding claim checks for property checked at the door creates an impotent defense at best. Civil liability will still attach because the bouncers are knowingly handing over a potential weapon to an impaired person.
Also, the Dram Shop Laws would nail the bar/club owner for allowing service of alcohol to a visibly impaired person, if that be the case.
Lastly, I would argue that NOT checking people at the door for weapons would relieve the club of liability if someone carried one concealed into the club. Unless the club has reason to be on notice of patrons potentially being armed (fights in the past, rival gangs in the area, etc.), the club would be best off not getting involved and claiming that it was fault of the perpetrator who chose to bring a weapon to a club and use it. Or, in the alternative, refuse to allow any patrons in who possess a weapon, but DO NOT collect those weapons. No entry with weapons, leave it home or in the car like Jennifer suggested.
PV29, First thanks for the reading of my post! I can only tell for sure about NY law, but that I will argue pretty far that I am right. About 18 months ago the company I work for now rented a 35,000 sq ft space to Dave and Buster's in Times Square. We reviewed these matters with Our lawyers, NYC Corprate Council, NYPD Mid Town South Borough Commanding officer ( A two star Chief), D&B Lawyers and a ADA from Manhattan. Since Dave and Busters is a bar/arcade/club we were very concerned with what could and could not be done. I will not comment on what they decided to do ,but we were very clear as to what we could do and how to do it. You never are free of liabilty, but there are ways to attempt to limit it. I agree that not allowing entrance with a weapon is the best method ( my company also owns the NYFD Headquaters in Brooklyn and that is their policy, which leads to numerous knives in our planters outside the building). If I have learned nothing else I clearly know that you will be sued if something happens. We have a Chucky Cheese in Brooklyn were there was a double stabbing inside their lease space by a mad parent, and yes we as the landlord were served with papers a month ago for inadequate security, so once again with all due respect I stand by my statements......
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Always a pleasure, Tom.
I've handled quite a number of civil liability cases in NY, but not many specifically with bar/club liability for weapons on a patron. It would seem that "notice" is very crucial, that is whether the club was or should have reasonably been on notice of potential weapons possession. The club is obligated to take reasonable precautions for the safety of patrons, but they are not required to act as law enforcement, IMO. However, having seen what juries in NY, Queens and Kings counties can do with a case, your people are wise to be extra careful. Oh, and the Bronx ....... fughedaboutit.
BTW, isn't it incredibly ironic that a city with such restrictive gun and knife laws like NYC, has such an incredibly tough time keeping weapons out of its public places? Or that the owners/landlords of these places have such nightmares with regard to liability for patrons wielding weapons on site?
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i really don't feel it's their responsibility to store your knife for you. really, the bouncer is doin you a favor by holding on to it. if i was posted at a door, screening for weapons and i found one, i'd simply tell the person they cannot bring it in. when they ask what they're supposed to do with it, i'd shrug i pretty much tell them it's THEIR knife THEY need to figure that out.
i'm a huge supporter of carrying tools (for utility and self defense), but i also support a property owners right to govern his domain. i, generally, won't patronize places with metal detectors.
i'm a huge supporter of carrying tools (for utility and self defense), but i also support a property owners right to govern his domain. i, generally, won't patronize places with metal detectors.
PV29, I also forgot two side bars that will make you laugh, in the case of the Fire Department with the "no knives allowed policy" , we have to make hourly checks of the landscape and flower pots around the building since ther is a high school two blocks away and the fact that knives are dumped there has created an "attractive nusiance". If you are done laughing from that one, in the Chuckie Cheese case, their is an exposure for more liabilty because the now bankrupt Discovery Zone had metal detectors at their entrance in another Brooklyn mall we owned and Chuckie C does not, and some one now thinks we should had instructed them to have them.....lol....I miss my days in law enforcement as at least when you were shot at you heard the bang.......
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I live in Pigeon Forge, TN and carry a 5.11 Tarani folding karambit in my front pocket often. The blade length is 2.5". I have the clip visible on the outside of my pants pocket and the knife is inside my pocket. So far I have not had any issues.
If I am going to a large public even or inside the courthouse to obtain my car tag or something like that then I leave my knife in the car or carry a small Benchmade mini-Griptilian or Bradley Alias II inside my pocket with the clip removed.
The karambit may cause issues with law enforcement but I'm not sure. I like having it just in case I need it at some point. But, I'm not taing it out of my pocket and flashing it around. Only the pocket clip and end ring are visible when carrying.
If I am going to a large public even or inside the courthouse to obtain my car tag or something like that then I leave my knife in the car or carry a small Benchmade mini-Griptilian or Bradley Alias II inside my pocket with the clip removed.
The karambit may cause issues with law enforcement but I'm not sure. I like having it just in case I need it at some point. But, I'm not taing it out of my pocket and flashing it around. Only the pocket clip and end ring are visible when carrying.
It's the courthouses with metal detectors that I worry about. Then all my stuff is locked in the vehicle. Otherwise, I have a RAT RC-3 in my left front pocket or worn under the shirt as a neck knife, and its still under 4". But I do contract work with the state, so I wouldn't get any hassle if it was a work-site.
myright
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I went to the Holocaust museum in DC and had a sub 3" folder on me. I didn't even think about having it in my pocket until I walked through the metal detector and it went off.
They were pretty cool about it, they measured the bladed and told me that I was very close to being denied entry and possibly other penaties. They gave it back and went inside.
I was very surprised.
I can understand completely that a venue would not allow a knife inside. I'm glad to hear you got it back. That doesn't seem like a very good system they have for checking the knives at the door. Maybe if the car was close enough I would have just walked it out to the car.
They were pretty cool about it, they measured the bladed and told me that I was very close to being denied entry and possibly other penaties. They gave it back and went inside.
I was very surprised.
I can understand completely that a venue would not allow a knife inside. I'm glad to hear you got it back. That doesn't seem like a very good system they have for checking the knives at the door. Maybe if the car was close enough I would have just walked it out to the car.
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Never posted on this forum, but I agree with Tom...and I happen to be a knife nut and an attorney in Tennessee. Private clubs/businesses can make whatever rules they want. If you don't want someone to take your knife, take it to your car or don't bring it at all. I've had a knife on my belt everyday for 26 years, and if someone doesn't want me to take it into their business, I respect that. How would you feel if you invite a man to dinner who happens to be carrying a firearm...if you asked him not to bring it inside, how would you feel if he said no to you and walked on inside.
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And just to clarify one thing, a private business has the ability to make its own rules regardless of whether the law permits a knife under 4 inches...in the exact same manner that a restaurant can ban smoking inside while others are puffing away on the sidewalk.
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I understand establishments wanting to have people check items they may consider weapons. Don't necessarily like it, but I understand it. At the same time, I would ask the same understanding from them that should they ask me to surrender my property to their custody I would not do it without getting a specific receipt and the name of the person responsible for it. If that can't be accommodated I'll just choose to go somewhere else at that time.
My house is not a place of business open to the public where people frequently enter and exit, it's a private residence - no offense, IMHO I just don't see much of a comparison. Also, let's clarify that we are talking about knives here, not firearms. We all know there is a big difference between the legal aspects of those two. But I agree with you, if they don't allow it, I leave it in the car or just don't go there.
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