20 CV sharpening

[microtech85]

This thread is an interesting read on the use of ceramics with high carbide steels. There is NOT a consensus on ceramics, that's for sure. But a lot of interesting background and pro/con reasoning throughout, you definitely come out of it more informed on the issues, even if it doesn't change your mind. My post here summarized key arguments around the issues of using ceramics, on both sides of the issue. Probably won't change anyone's mind, but worth a read. My own view my usage: they work fine for all non-HC steels, though even there, ceramics have some issues such as loading and etc., and I find this annoying so I really quit using them for primary sharpening altogether. The ONLY primary sharpening task anymore I use ceramics for is sharpening serrated kitchen knives, and that has nothing to do with ceramics, it's just because it's so doggone slick and easy on the Sharpmaker stones. As for HC steels, IMHO ceramics are best reserved for kind of a niche role as I posted in that thread, a few very light strokes after apexing for edge refinement. I rarely even bother with that on my utility blades, but ironically I had just used my UF rods to crisp an apex earlier today, so it works for sure and I do still do that. But I won't use them for primary sharpening of HC steels, at all. Nor even for maintenance of the edges either, for that I go to a strop with diamond compound. But for sure--if your setup is working for you and keeps your cost under control--keep doing that.

what diamond stones do you own? And what is your favorite stone at the moment? And are you able to consistently get very sharp edges?

 

[maximus83]

I own 3 types right now: Atoma 140 (for lapping and profiling), DMT in several grits XC thru EEF, and an Ultrasharp 2-sided 300/1200. But I have more than I need there. Strangely enough, at the moment, the cheapest one (Ultrasharp) is the favorite. I wouldn't claim that it is the "best for the $$" or recommend it yet, haven't really used it long enough. For example, one potential issue with less expensive diamond stones, once you're out of the name brands like Atoma and DMT, is that they can wear out faster. Not all do, but I've had some cheap no-name brands that wore out really fast. Or that they aren't manufactured with good tolerances to be super flat. I'll find out. But for now, the Ultrasharp is working great. It's a continuous surface stone, and it has the 2 grits I use most often, so it's super handy to just put a good toothy edge on the coarse side, then a few finishing swipes on the EF side. Maintenance--I am doing that almost entirely on a wood block strop with diamond compound, which saves having to go back to the diamond plates and reduces risk that I'll hork the edge. Basically, except for major blade profiling, I could sharpen and maintain everything I have with just 2 items: the Ultrasharp, and the strop. The DMT diasharp plates in equivalent grits are also great, and those I could definitely recommend, just a bit more spendy (2 plates in say C, and EF, would run you around $110). So with basically 2 diamond grits, and the strop (occasionally followed by the Spydie UF ceramic to refine), I can sharpen all my HC steels. As implied in your vid and other comments, it is definitely the case that this type of diamond setup costs you more than the Spydie SM + strop that you're using now. If you're getting the results you want in sharpness and don't want to spend a bunch of $$, I can see why you'd keep what you have.

 

[maximus83]

M microtech85 , this one's for you, just to show that I completely agree that "different approaches can get things really sharp" (including use of ceramics). ETA tagging @adamlau who is interested in the Moldmaster SiC stones.

Here's what I did with my new-ish Buck Vantage Pro S30v:

• Used Sharpmaker, and the Congress Tools Moldmaster SiC stones in grit progression of 150/400/600, complete edge reprofile and set the bevel at 15 dps. I've been experimenting with these anyway for fun, and because I see promise of using Sharpmaker for folks who can't/won't learn freehand, and for myself when in a hurry and want nice consistent results. This took about 15 minutes for a complete edge reprofile and put the nice smooth finished bevel that you see in the pic.
• Used Sharpmaker fine ceramic, created a microbevel, about 20 light passes per side at the 20 dps sharpmaker setting.
• Stropped about 10 passes per side on 10 micron compound
• Result: just screaming, killer sharp using my usual home sharpness tests similar to yours (push and pull-cutting newsprint, shaving arm hair, paper towels). I've never gotten a knife sharper than this using freehanding and diamond stones. So yeah, there's more than one path to sharp. I don't think this cancels out my other concerns about ceramics, but I'm agreeing with you, they can work quite nicely and get great results--on an already well setup edge.

 

[microtech85]

M microtech85 , this one's for you, just to show that I completely agree that "different approaches can get things really sharp" (including use of ceramics). ETA tagging @adamlau who is interested in the Moldmaster SiC stones.

Here's what I did with my new-ish Buck Vantage Pro S30v:

• Used Sharpmaker, and the Congress Tools Moldmaster SiC stones in grit progression of 150/400/600, complete edge reprofile and set the bevel at 15 dps. I've been experimenting with these anyway for fun, and because I see promise of using Sharpmaker for folks who can't/won't learn freehand, and for myself when in a hurry and want nice consistent results. This took about 15 minutes for a complete edge reprofile and put the nice smooth finished bevel that you see in the pic.
• Used Sharpmaker fine ceramic, created a microbevel, about 20 light passes per side at the 20 dps sharpmaker setting.
• Stropped about 10 passes per side on 10 micron compound
• Result: just screaming, killer sharp using my usual home sharpness tests similar to yours (push and pull-cutting newsprint, shaving arm hair, paper towels). I've never gotten a knife sharper than this using freehanding and diamond stones. So yeah, there's more than one path to sharp. I don't think this cancels out my other concerns about ceramics, but I'm agreeing with you, they can work quite nicely and get great results--on an already well setup edge.

Your bevel looks good. It gets a little wide at the tip. I used to have that problem too. You have to lift the knife up about an inch as you approach the tip. Good work.

 

[willc]

Here is the video i said i would make demonstrating how sharp my 20cv edge is from medium spyderco ceramic rod. Sharpness test begins at about 25 seconds in and lasts about a minute.

Nice video and some very good info in this thread.

When this subject comes up the thing that bothers me is when people make statements that are absolutes.

There are so many variables in sharpening.
I don’t need diamonds to reprofile any steel but sometimes it is easier with diamonds.

I have over a half dozen diamond plates but they aren’t my preferred method of grinding steel.

Also not all ceramics are the same or are silicon carbide based stones, different stones have all different types of characteristics.

I just sharpened my S110v Manix on my Nubatama 220 and I was able to apex and deburr in about 5 minutes on an edge that was not damaged but dull.
Now it is shaving sharp and even though the stone is labeled 220 the scratch pattern is more like 400 when using the mud instead of rinsing the stone.

Most of us here know better but when a new guy come here looking for information and they see this stuff and then drop a good bit of cash on diamond plates or worse get cheap diamond plates and have a hard time free handing that doesn’t help the knife world.
I don’t know about others experience but diamonds are not the easiest medium to sharpen on for myself.

So with that I will still continue to sharpen my dirty steel with clogged apex’s on my non diamond stones and use my plates when necessary.

 

[maximus83]

Your bevel looks good. It gets a little wide at the tip. I used to have that problem too. You have to lift the knife up about an inch as you approach the tip. Good work.

Thx Micro, yep I've had that issue with widening at tip on SM at times.

The takeaway I was trying to suggest, which goes to the OP's question and your point about ceramics: there's a way that one could use Sharpmaker with these SiC stones, + ceramic at the high grit end just for finishing (set the micro and refine), that would sharpen HC steels, keep costs down, let you use SM, and still include ceramics in the picture. The Congress tools SiC stones, say for a set of 2 each in 150/400/600, would be $32, and these things cut HC steels great. I've already used these on a 20cv Spyderco Mule I have. This is why I'm experimenting with this setup, it seems like a really cost-effective solution for somebody that wants a guided setup to sharpen super steels.

 

[microtech85]

Yes, i agree, ceramics and diamonds or ceramics and SiC make for a very good combination. I use my diamonds to bring an edge up faster when my knife is more dull than average. I think a dual grit SiC with a single sharpmaker rod would make a very nice economical sharpening solution for someone on a tight budget. i think to myself from time to time, " if i only had limited money to spend on sharpening supplies, which should i get". I think my answer at the moment would be SiC and a single sharpmaker rod. That could be had for $20 total and you cojld get very keen edges. like the edge i get from SiC brtter than what i get from diamond. But i have never bought an extra fine or higher diamond stone since i have the ceramics that fulfill that role for me, but in the end, no matter what system or stones one uses, it comes down to the users skill. I think anyone new into sharpening looking at our posts will take away good advice.

 

[microtech85]

Thx Micro, yep I've had that issue with widening at tip on SM at times.

The takeaway I was trying to suggest, which goes to the OP's question and your point about ceramics: there's a way that one could use Sharpmaker with these SiC stones, + ceramic at the high grit end just for finishing (set the micro and refine), that would sharpen HC steels, keep costs down, let you use SM, and still include ceramics in the picture. The Congress tools SiC stones, say for a set of 2 each in 150/400/600, would be $32, and these things cut HC steels great. I've already used these on a 20cv Spyderco Mule I have. This is why I'm experimenting with this setup, it seems like a really cost-effective solution for somebody that wants a guided setup to sharpen super steels.

Successfully sharpening your own knives is very rewarding. i think even more rewarding is when you develop the skills to be proficient with free hand sharpening. It takes time and practice to really get it down but your skills will become your "system" instead of relying on a sharpening system. i think free hand also gives you the ultimate control over your sharpening.

 

[maximus83]

Successfully sharpening your own knives is very rewarding. i think even more rewarding is when you develop the skills to be proficient with free hand sharpening. It takes time and practice to really get it down but your skills will become your "system" instead of relying on a sharpening system. i think free hand also gives you the ultimate control over your sharpening.

It is, and that's why I'm totally freehand with my own sharpening after years of doing both freehand and using SM, or playing with inexpensive guided like DMT aligner. However: I think an inexpensive guided system like SM is still a good option for fellow knife users who can't/won't invest the effort to learn freehand. You see posts of this type almost every day here in BF somewhere, somebody wants a simple, low-cost sharpening system and doesn't want to learn freehand. I have a number of family members who own SM, and HC steels, and they'll use SM but won't learn freehand. I also have a spouse who would use SM to MAINTAIN knives after I set a good edge on my stones. Basically, I think SM is a much better fallback alternative for folks not willing to do freehand or expensive guided systems, it's WAY better than pull-thru sharpeners for instance. I'm doing an approach for my wife where I set about a 12 dps edge on her most used kitchen knives, then micro to 15 dps on the SM fine stones. She can then just touch them up with a few quick swipes on the fine, super easy, and I'm hoping I won't have to sharpen those for a long time. So I agree that while freehand is the ultimate way to go, there are folks that realistically will be doing good to just use SM, and they can get pretty darn good results with SM, if they use the right combination of abrasives. Your vid is kind of a case in point. That's why I'm interested in testing new stone options like SiC in the SM, it's a pretty good darn good maintenance tool with a low learning curve, for folks who are not freehanding nerds like us.

 

[microtech85]

It is, and that's why I'm totally freehand with my own sharpening after years of doing both freehand and using SM, or playing with inexpensive guided like DMT aligner. However: I think an inexpensive guided system like SM is still a good option for fellow knife users who can't/won't invest the effort to learn freehand. You see posts of this type almost every day here in BF somewhere, somebody wants a simple, low-cost sharpening system and doesn't want to learn freehand. I have a number of family members who own SM, and HC steels, and they'll use SM but won't learn freehand. I also have a spouse who would use SM to MAINTAIN knives after I set a good edge on my stones. Basically, I think SM is a much better fallback alternative for folks not willing to do freehand or expensive guided systems, it's WAY better than pull-thru sharpeners for instance. I'm doing an approach for my wife where I set about a 12 dps edge on her most used kitchen knives, then micro to 15 dps on the SM fine stones. She can then just touch them up with a few quick swipes on the fine, super easy, and I'm hoping I won't have to sharpen those for a long time. So I agree that while freehand is the ultimate way to go, there are folks that realistically will be doing good to just use SM, and they can get pretty darn good results with SM, if they use the right combination of abrasives. Your vid is kind of a case in point. That's why I'm interested in testing new stone options like SiC in the SM, it's a pretty good darn good maintenance tool with a low learning curve, for folks who are not freehanding nerds like us.

That's why I'm interested in testing new stone options like SiC in the SM

I just did 4 sharpening tests with SiC, diamond, and ceramics yesterday. I may make a video to show the results.

 

[microtech85]

Nice video and some very good info in this thread.

When this subject comes up the thing that bothers me is when people make statements that are absolutes.

There are so many variables in sharpening.
I don’t need diamonds to reprofile any steel but sometimes it is easier with diamonds.

I have over a half dozen diamond plates but they aren’t my preferred method of grinding steel.

Also not all ceramics are the same or are silicon carbide based stones, different stones have all different types of characteristics.

I just sharpened my S110v Manix on my Nubatama 220 and I was able to apex and deburr in about 5 minutes on an edge that was not damaged but dull.
Now it is shaving sharp and even though the stone is labeled 220 the scratch pattern is more like 400 when using the mud instead of rinsing the stone.

Most of us here know better but when a new guy come here looking for information and they see this stuff and then drop a good bit of cash on diamond plates or worse get cheap diamond plates and have a hard time free handing that doesn’t help the knife world.
I don’t know about others experience but diamonds are not the easiest medium to sharpen on for myself.

So with that I will still continue to sharpen my dirty steel with clogged apex’s on my non diamond stones and use my plates when necessary.

You make a lot of good points. Especially about different stones. I am able to get consistently sharper edges on my $30 eze lap fine diamond stone than i can get on my $45 dmt fine stone. For me, the eze-lap leaves a nicer edge than the dmt. However, the dmt seems to be flatter and that makes it a joy to sharpen with. But overall i am not a big fan of how diamonds leave a knife's edge. Having said that, i do like diamond stones for quickly drawing up a burr from a very dull knife then progressing to ceramics. For my touch-ups i use only ceramic or strop. I try to be careful about how much steel i remove from the blade. i like my blades to keep their shape and last for as long as possible.

 

[willc]

Diamond stones do have their place and I am happy to have them in my arsenal but my main gripe with them is their feel and feedback.


I also agree with you M microtech85 about the edge most plates leave.
My green DMT leaves a good edge but it is also pretty worn so it is not as fast as it used to be but I like it’s edge.
Even then I most likely will strop afterwards.

But to get back on topic for the OP, if using the Lansky system I would definitely go with the diamond plates.
The Lansky is not perfect but it works and the diamonds make it a bit more versatile system.