204P more knives?

gull wing

gull wing

Joined
May 4, 2002
Messages
2,536
Don't see many knives in CTS 204P, why?
I got a Spyderco Southard in this steel. I like it, but the Southard has a thick blade and a bit heavy, I don't carry it much.
Wonder why there aren't more knives in this steel, perhaps smaller ones.
 
Zero Tolerance has been building knives with 204p. The 0562cf has just transitioned to 20cv but most of the existing stock is 204p, the 0456, the 0804 are 204p, all the 0392 LE's have been 204p, and the newest sprint run, the 0562ORBLK is 204p as well. I'm probably forgetting a few
 
gull wing said:
Don't see many knives in CTS 204P, why?
I got a Spyderco Southard in this steel. I like it, but the Southard has a thick blade and a bit heavy, I don't carry it much.
Wonder why there aren't more knives in this steel, perhaps smaller ones.
Click to expand...

Have you seen this? Looks like a fantastic deal if you can handle a big blade like the military:

http://www.knifeworks.com/spydercom...nifeworksexclusivepre-order.aspx#.WDszZLnnmFo

I have it on my ZT 0562CF and like it a lot!
 
Thanks for your input.
These are on the large heavy side, not what I carry lately(3" blade, weight around 4.2oz or less).
Of course M390 is a great steel.....
 
m390 and CTS-204p are the same thing. also so is 20cv

m390 is the original and is made in germany
204p is made in the usa and is a copy of the m390.

the only difference between them is that m390 uses a slightly finer grain size powder.

you will not notice a difference in use or testing what so ever.

knife manufactures choose to use one or the other based on prices and availability of each steel type.

many people do not know ANY of this so it allows knife makers to make more money.
 
Mo2 said:
m390 and CTS-204p are the same thing. also so is 20cv

m390 is the original and is made in germany
204p is made in the usa and is a copy of the m390.

the only difference between them is that m390 uses a slightly finer grain size powder.

you will not notice a difference in use or testing what so ever.

knife manufactures choose to use one or the other based on prices and availability of each steel type.

many people do not know ANY of this so it allows knife makers to make more money.
Click to expand...

Actually anyone who has been reading here for any period of time knows what you are saying. They are not the same, you say it yourself. Also, different makers have different HT.
 
craytab said:
Actually anyone who has been reading here for any period of time knows what you are saying. They are not the same, you say it yourself. Also, different makers have different HT.
Click to expand...

They look pretty close to me, near identical in fact.

Differing HT protocol would definitely change the performance of the alloy, as would geometry, cutting edge shape, and a myriad of other things.
That being said, HT wouldn't change the makeup of the alloy (I don't think that is what you were saying, but clarifying that for any newer folks.).
 
NJBillK said:
They look pretty close to me, near identical in fact.

Differing HT protocol would definitely change the performance of the alloy, as would geometry, cutting edge shape, and a myriad of other things.
That being said, HT wouldn't change the makeup of the alloy (I don't think that is what you were saying, but clarifying that for any newer folks.).
Click to expand...

I agree, but "near" is not "the same" :thumbup:

It does matter who you buy from. Many manufacturers switched from M390 to the others because M390 was difficult to get. BM had a bad run of M390. Their new grips are in 20cv. For all intents and purposes they might be the same in use (as long as you get a good batch of M390). That said, I like supporting the locally made stuff. BM also claims various gains in their 20cv over M390 (toughness and ease of sharpening I believe). Not sure this is true because I haven't experienced any differences. I've like all 3 variations of this steel that I've had but I put my hat in the 204P and 20cv ring.
 
As far as I am concerned, when buying a production knife, you basically have to choose based upon ergos, lock type, and aesthetics. Primarily due to most companies are going to temper their blades under optimal HRC to buffer themselves from people crying over a "poor HT" when the knife is used to pry open paint cans, as a screwdriver, the spine is used to hammer and pry nails, et al.

Unfortunately knife companies don't make a line of knives designed for "knife knuts" that are ran harder and thinner BTE... Primarily due to this, HT protocols drop down the list (few exceptions withstanding**).
-Yes, some companies do have bad HT batches, it is inevitable since bad batches can even leave the foundry with a non-optimal or incorrect mix. Once corrected, you can often send your knife in for a warranty replacement.

If you want to see what a more specialized or optimized HT regimen acts like, you would need to go custom or find companies that push the HRC for the sake of performance (Rockstead) or data mining (Spyderco Mule project, Maxamet @ 67hrc).

That being said, I have an ZT 770cfM4 (ran soft @ 61ish) and a custom in CPM rex 76 @ 64hrc (tempered down from 67hrc) in my pocket and the Rex 76 is Vastly outperforming the M4 (as would be expected).
 
I have a number of fixed and folders in M390 as well as in CTS-204P. As these steels hold an edge for a long time, I have little experience in sharpening them...although I have the necessary tools to do so.

Whitty...a dealer/enthusiast who I really like to read...said this (on 8-11-16) below.... His post gives me the impression that he greatly prefers 204P over M390...at least in terms of ease of sharpening. If I have misunderstood...then I hope that he will correct me.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1420122-ZT-562-or-ZT-562CF?highlight=M390
Dealer / Materials Provider

This is only my opinion based on my own experiences. I had the ZT0562CF with M390. I liked the knife and it held an edge really well, but when it came time to sharpen the knife, it was a murderous task. When ZT switched over to CTS-204P I was scared of it based on my past experience with M390, so I avoided it. When the ZT0456 came out I could no longer avoid it because I love the design and size of the knife. Needless to say, I put a ZT0456 in my pocket. Since that time I have used and abused my 456 and the CTS-204P has blown me away. I have done things with my knife that I feel sure should have wrecked the blade, only to come away with not even a micro nick. I have carried it for over 4 months and the only form of sharpening I have done is running it up and down a strop. After stropping it goes right back to shaving hair sharp.

I tell you all of that to say this. With the Carbon Fiber Scales and the incredible CTS-204P steel, I personally think it is worth the upgrade. Regardless of which you choose, you will be getting an awesome knife.
 
I am curious if ZT used the same HT protocol or if one company (foundry) had done some more/better R&D when it came down to nailing their HT for cutlery-centric usage?
 
Sonnydaze said:
I have a number of fixed and folders in M390 as well as in CTS-204P. As these steels hold an edge for a long time, I have little experience in sharpening them...although I have the necessary tools to do so.

Whitty...a dealer/enthusiast who I really like to read...said this (on 8-11-16) below.... His post gives me the impression that he greatly prefers 204P over M390...at least in terms of ease of sharpening. If I have misunderstood...then I hope that he will correct me.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1420122-ZT-562-or-ZT-562CF?highlight=M390
Dealer / Materials Provider

This is only my opinion based on my own experiences. I had the ZT0562CF with M390. I liked the knife and it held an edge really well, but when it came time to sharpen the knife, it was a murderous task. When ZT switched over to CTS-204P I was scared of it based on my past experience with M390, so I avoided it. When the ZT0456 came out I could no longer avoid it because I love the design and size of the knife. Needless to say, I put a ZT0456 in my pocket. Since that time I have used and abused my 456 and the CTS-204P has blown me away. I have done things with my knife that I feel sure should have wrecked the blade, only to come away with not even a micro nick. I have carried it for over 4 months and the only form of sharpening I have done is running it up and down a strop. After stropping it goes right back to shaving hair sharp.

I tell you all of that to say this. With the Carbon Fiber Scales and the incredible CTS-204P steel, I personally think it is worth the upgrade. Regardless of which you choose, you will be getting an awesome knife.
Click to expand...

I remember reading that. It would also echo what BM says about switching from M390 to 20cv.
 
if you want the optimal heat treat get a custom knife made with someone that can do the heat treat to your specifications. a production knife wont be optimal for the reasons suggested above.

but for most purposes its the nearly identical to one another in composition and how its made. granted you have all sorts of other factors as also mentioned above.

not sure why any of that needed to be clarified especially if you are an avid reader of this forum.
 
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