.22 LR Muzzle Velocity drop

[vwb563]

In a blow back operated firearm the bullet has left the barrel long before the slide / bolt begins to unlock from the barrel / chamber or the shell case would explode while it was still inside the the gun because it would have been removed from the chamber while the gases and chamber pressure were still at maximum. This is why blow back systems have heavy recoil springs. They have the job of keeping the shell casing in the chamber until the bullet has left the barrel and the pressures have dropped to a safe level.,,VWB.

 

[David E]

I'm going to try this one more time.

Given the same cartridge(caliber, bullet weight and design, powder weight, primer, etc) a firearm that burns all of the powder in the same time (burn time) as the time it takes the projectile to transit from the chamber to the muzzle (transit time) will generate a higher velocity that a firearm with a transit time that is shorter than the burn time. By design, the transit time for a semiauto is shorter than the burn time.

Says who? You can find a semi-auto that has the right barrel length to allow the powder to fully combust, same as you could a bolt action. In which case, the "transit" time is virtually the same.

I can detect the difference. the recoil of a semiauto shotgun is substantially less than that of a o/u in the same guage with the same loads. This differnece is due to the energy being syphoned off to work the action. This is true with both Beretta (gas operated) and Benelli (inertia driven) shotguns.

Incorrect. The difference is due to the different mechanisms being used. In an O/U, you bear the full brunt of the sudden recoil. In a semi-auto, that same kick is spread out over a longer duration, converting the recoil into more of a "push" instead of the "punch" of the O/U

My point with not being able to tell the velocity difference wasn't about which gun mechanism you were using, but that you can't tell if the bullet is going 10-50 fps slower or faster than the shot before it. This is called shot to shot variance, or the official term, "standard deviation." (SD for short)

If you fired a 150 grain bullet from your bolt action @ 2500 fps and I fired one from my semi-auto @ 2475 fps, our follow up shots could easily swap velocity. IE; You'd fire a round @ 2475 fps, and I'd fire one @ 2500 fps. Neither one of us could tell the difference in recoil from our respective guns, but yours would hurt more than mine for every shot, regardless of the SD. The point here being that the SD is more than the velocity loss of a semi-auto, so it matters not a whit.

I'm glad you like your guns so much, but even if your theory was totally true, the velocity difference is SOOOO minor as to be inconsequential.

.

 

[enkidu]

vwb563, what you are saying is correct. I will give that. However, compared to the full potential of the round (as observed with a barrel that allows full expansion of the gasses prior to exit of the round, and an action that does not use the energy of the burning powder to chamber the next round), a semi-auto will give you less velocity. Because the burning powder has to "blowback" the action once the bullet has left the muzzle, it has to have sufficient energy to do that. It has to save some energy to push the action back.

This is an incorrect representation of what is happening. Burning powder has no decision or method to direct its "energy". Burning powder increases the pressure in the cartridge shell, chamber and barrel behind the bullet, nothing more nothing less.

How does it do that? In part, firearm is designed with a barrel that is sufficiently short that the bullet can exit the barrel before all of the powder is burned. In this way, the powder is still burning when the action is "unlocked", and the remaining energy from the burning powder can be used to push the action back.

Completely incorrect. Simple blowback operated rifles and pistols rely on the mass of the bolt/slide and (to a lesser extent) the recoil spring to delay the extraction of the catridge until the bullet has left the barrel. The rearward movement of the bolt/slide begins as soon as total force against the cartridge face (pressure * area) rises enough to overcome the force of the recoil spring (practically instantly). As pressure increases, rearward acceleration of the bolt continues (countered by increasing force exerted by the compression of the recoil spring) until the bullet departs the muzzle and pressure inside the barrel drops to 1 atm. Typically, even low powder/power rounds are sufficient to cycle almost all simple blowback 22lr actions. Note that primer-only rounds will not cycle these actions.

The powder that is not burned while the bullet is in the barrel is potential lost.

Which is true regardless of whether a semi-auto action or a bolt action is used.

David E brings up good points about gasses escaping through otherr means (around the jacket or around the bullet due to design tolerances), but all things being equal velocity of BA > velocity of SA. Now I look at this from the perspective of the hunter, where velocity does matter, in lessening the effects of distance estimation and maximizing the downfield effects of the projectile.

I doubt if the difference in a low pressure blowback operated 22lr would even appear in any meaningful way. Barrel type, ambient temperature, barrel temperature, groove design, ammunition variance would play a far greater role.

The 30% value mentioned above is from one of those nebulus articles read, but not sufficiently remembered to find a concrete reference, but I believe it is from an article in an issuel of the North American Hunting Association Magazine. And, it is specifically in reference to high power hunting cartridges like the .30-06. The writer could have been in error, or strongly biased against semi-auto hunting arms, but I have no to support or refute either.

I believe that some basic calculations based on the gas pressure curve would refute that value quite handily.

I hunt with bolt actiton rifles and o/u shotguns in part to eek out every last fps from every cartridge.

I suggest you get a chronograph and do some real world tests to see if you really are getting what you think you are getting.

 

[vwb563]

This is an incorrect representation of what is happening. Burning powder has no decision or method to direct its "energy". Burning powder increases the pressure in the cartridge shell, chamber and barrel behind the bullet, nothing more nothing less.Completely incorrect. Simple blowback operated rifles and pistols rely on the mass of the bolt/slide and (to a lesser extent) the recoil spring to delay the extraction of the catridge until the bullet has left the barrel. The rearward movement of the bolt/slide begins as soon as total force against the cartridge face (pressure * area) rises enough to overcome the force of the recoil spring (practically instantly). As pressure increases, rearward acceleration of the bolt continues (countered by increasing force exerted by the compression of the recoil spring) until the bullet departs the muzzle and pressure inside the barrel drops to 1 atm. Typically, even low powder/power rounds are sufficient to cycle almost all simple blowback 22lr actions. Note that primer-only rounds will not cycle these actions.Which is true regardless of whether a semi-auto action or a bolt action is used. I doubt if the difference in a low pressure blowback operated 22lr would even appear in any meaningful way. Barrel type, ambient temperature, barrel temperature, groove design, ammunition variance would play a far greater role. I believe that some basic calculations based on the gas pressure curve would refute that value quite handily. I suggest you get a chronograph and do some real world tests to see if you really are getting what you think you are getting.

enkidu, my friend, you are wasting your time with this one,,,VWB.

 

[enkidu]

You're probably right vwb. Figured I might as well answer the original questions

Okay, so I am looking for my first .22 LR pistol...

Great! 22's are great pistols to hone your skills or just have some fun at the range.

I am assuming that the muzzle velocity listed for most .22 LR ammo is for rifles.

Here are the questions I have...

What is the drop when fired from a short barrel?

The drop isn't that much at all. This spreadsheet I found http://www.flat5.net/22LR_velocities.html gives handguns as having between 82% and 90% of the velocity of the rifle depending on ammunition. Unless you went to a super short barrel (2-2.5") you probably won't notice at all.

How much more velocity would I lose using an automatic (I am looking at the Sig Mosquito and Ruger Mark III 5" Hunter) versus a revolver (I am looking at the S&W 617 6" 10 shot)?

Can anyone help me out? Thanks in advance.

Not completely sure but I would guess that the flash gap in the 617 would reduce muzzle velocity more than the Mark III loses by having a slightly shorter barrel. Either way, shouldn't make much of a difference again.

Great choices BTW. Unless you are wedded to the idea of a revolver, I'd go with a semi-auto. You can buy extra magazines (they are not clips, please) and load while your buddy is shooting. If you're looking to get any Sigs in the future, the mosquito would probably be a better platform in terms of consistency with other guns from Sig. But the Ruger Mark III has tons (and I mean tons) of aftermarket accessories available for it so if you think you might want to trick it out later by replacing triggers/barrels etc. the Ruger is the best choice. If you just want a solid 22lr pistol, I'd add the Browning Buckmark to the mix; it's a great gun with good ergos and solid reliability.

 

[zenheretic]

Hehehe.

I don't know if it would be different for other calibers, but I think the general rule of thumb for Ar-15s is roughly 50 fps for every inch shorter of barrel... (?)

Does that make any sense to anyone?

 

[wildmanh]

I rather like the Ruger Mark series pistols. Used to rent one at a local range. My first pistol is the Ruger Single Six convertible. Shoots .22 LR and .22 WRM. Back in 2006 when I went to buy my first pistol people recomended the Single Six because of the intregrated safety and simplisity. It's a great platform to learn the basics of firearms, trigger control and breathing. And since it only has 6 shots you are more likely to take your time to place the shots then you would with a 10 shot semi auto.

My next Pistol is the Beretta U22 Neos .22 Semi Auto Pistol. I am rather fond of that gun. When I want to put lots of .22 bullets down range thats the one I use. And when I take my time I'm a pretty good shot with it also. Take down is very easy, You don't even need a tool. Lock the slide back then just press a button, turn a knob and the barrel comes off with the sight and rail (has an integrated rail). Go to Gunblast to check out some reviews. You can get 4", 6.5" and 7.5" barrels for it. Beretta also carries different colored grips. I got the standard 4" blued model with black grips but am probably going to get the Beretta blue on black grips for it in the future.

I've handled the Sig Misquito and found it rather nice. First gen guns had problems but I believe SIG is now on Generation 3 which has fixed said issues. I have a SIG in 9mm so if I wanted a trainer I'd get the Misquito. My only problem with that is I like the Walther P22 a little better and I only spent $299 on my Full sized SIG where as the Misquito is over $400. LOL!!

The Walther P22 I've shot and liked it. Been thinking about getting one for sometime now. You can get it with either a 3" or 5" barrel. I believe the barrels are also user changeable. It's also the same design as the Walther P99 so if you are looking at that pistol the P22 would make a great trainer.

A friend has the Buckmark Stainless Camper and I've had the pleasure of shooting it a few times. It's pretty nice specially like the fiberoptic front sight and grips. The price is pretty good too.

There are plenty of nice .22 LR Pistols out there. If you have not had the chance to feel them at a store, you should. When you buy one, get a bulk pack of ammo (500+ rounds) and shoot all the ammo. Then try 50 to 100 packs and see which one the gun likes the best. Pretty much every gun forum and even BF.C I've asked about breaking in a new pistol they have recommened that so I'm passing it on to you. Did notice that my Single Six even though it shot good it seems to smoothen out a bit around the 550 round mark.

Have fun, be safe and please show us pictures of your new pistol when you get it!

Heber

 

[SIFU1A]

the 1st time i ever assembled/dissassembled a ruger mark 1 a bud had taken his apart for cleaning and couldnt get it back together again, had been trying a few days, anyway he brought it to me in a papeer sack lol, no manual either, it took me an afternoon off and on fooling with it but i finally got it back together again.

if ya own a mark 1 imho gun scrubber is your friend lol.

a great .22 though for sure.

 

[Absintheur]

I would add the Browning Buckmark to your list of possible choices, it is one of the best out there in the price range you are looking at. Having said that there are several factors you should look at.

1. Sights, if you plan on scoping it the Browning and Ruger are better suited for this.

2. Grip angle, handle each and with your eyes closed bring the firearm up to a shooting position with you having to break your wrist. The sights should line up naturally.

3. Accessories, if you like dressing out your firearms with add ons again the Browning and the Ruger have the most possible accessories. However should you want to change the barrel on the Ruger you will have to go through a FFL dealer as the barrel/receiver is the part that carries the serial number, with the Browning you can order a new barrel directly.

In regards to muzzle loss, it is such a small loss that it really doesn't matter in a 4-6 inch barrel. If it does concern bother you then buy pistol ammo which uses a slightly faster burning powder...may make a 1 to 2% difference...lol. Of course it often runs much, much higher in cost.

It all comes down to personal choice. I have owned Rugers, Brownings, 1911 conversions, S&Ws, High Standards, Benellis, etc...Right now in semi autos I have a Browning Buckmark.

 

[David E]

the 1st time i ever assembled/dissassembled a ruger mark 1 a bud had taken his apart for cleaning and couldnt get it back together again, had been trying a few days, anyway he brought it to me in a papeer sack lol, no manual either, it took me an afternoon off and on fooling with it but i finally got it back together again..

It's not hard, you just need to understand that hammer strut position! It can't be on the inside of that pin. If the mainspring assembly doesn't have any tension just before seating it flush, you missed the strut and need to try again, but it's not difficult at all, once you know where you need to place the hammer strut.

.

 

[OwenM]

All you've got to know is to pull the trigger, and which way to tilt the frame before attaching the upper receiver.
Finding out the trick on your own would be about impossible, I would think. I've heard the stories about people bringing in a sack or a zip-loc bag full of parts several times.

chewbacca, don't let that deter you. It's a simple thing, you just need to follow the owner's manual the first few times you reassemble.
The Ruger is one of the most robust and reliable .22LR semiautos there is, and the bull barrel/adj. sight versions are capable of extreme accuracy. It will shoot until it's so gummed up with powder residue that the bolt won't go into battery-take a pen knife or small screwdriver if you're going to be shooting bricks of ammo at a time. Just takes a second to scrape some off, and you're back in business.
I used to have one of the 5.5" slab-side barrel Competition Target Models with Hogues in place of the thumbramp grips, and could roll golf balls with it out to 40yds. standing unsupported. The 7" S&W 41 is the only .22LR handgun I've ever shot that was more accurate.

 

[rnr]

the 1st time i ever assembled/dissassembled a ruger mark 1 a bud had taken his apart for cleaning and couldnt get it back together again, had been trying a few days, anyway he brought it to me in a papeer sack lol, no manual either, it took me an afternoon off and on fooling with it but i finally got it back together again.

check this procedure out.