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3/8" 5160
- Thread starter J. Neilson
- Start date
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Don: I know what you are talking about. I had detached retinas and cataracts in both eyes.Thank God for modern surgery.peter nap said:
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I stopped by my John Deer dealer yesterday, found out that I can buy a new load control shaft 1 1/8 X 21 inches for $100 dollars. Like I have said this is the best 5160 steel I have ever used. Consider it, that is an easy ten knives for great steel. What more can we ask for? Also while talking to the parts man you could easily get a line on some used ones.
If I cannot pick up enough used ones for the Seminars on the High Performance Knife that are taking place now, I definately plan on purchasing new ones. By starting with the best available, I believe we are doing the best business deal for ourselves and our clients.
Take Care
If I cannot pick up enough used ones for the Seminars on the High Performance Knife that are taking place now, I definately plan on purchasing new ones. By starting with the best available, I believe we are doing the best business deal for ourselves and our clients.
Take Care
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- Feb 6, 2001
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- 3,621
Sounds good Ed. That's a plan!
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- Jun 25, 2001
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Ed
can you skip the dealer and go to the source of that same steel bought by JD?
the pre-made shaft would be the expense,, with Johndeere their markup
on the completed shaft is at least 35% the same round stock for that same shaft I'd bet would be less than $40.00
just a thought..
can you skip the dealer and go to the source of that same steel bought by JD?
the pre-made shaft would be the expense,, with Johndeere their markup
on the completed shaft is at least 35% the same round stock for that same shaft I'd bet would be less than $40.00
just a thought..
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Hello Dan
I have been giving that a lot of thought. Rex found no faults in the load shafts he studied. He also noted a very sophisticated heat treat on the steel. The past year we have learned a lot about the importance of the nature of the steel when we start working on it. All our knife work came after they became load shafts.
If we could identify the outfit that made the same steel and get it in the form John Deer gets it we might be able to make it work, especially if we knew the heat treat that it gets before becoming a load shaft.
We do not have access to the lab at this time so we could easily spend a lot of time getting where it needs to be. Or we could make it work right off the bat. This is an arena that is uncharted at this time. I know how to make the load shafts work. When you think about the costs of load shafts at $100 and the resulting $10.00 for the knife steel is not much and is actually much cheaper than the 52100 we are working now, considering all the research, time and effort put into it.
Maybe there are some folks on the form who could get some information for us. I am going to try Monday. Usually I run into a road block real quick, if any makers or lurkers or members can help it will be appreciated.
I have been giving that a lot of thought. Rex found no faults in the load shafts he studied. He also noted a very sophisticated heat treat on the steel. The past year we have learned a lot about the importance of the nature of the steel when we start working on it. All our knife work came after they became load shafts.
If we could identify the outfit that made the same steel and get it in the form John Deer gets it we might be able to make it work, especially if we knew the heat treat that it gets before becoming a load shaft.
We do not have access to the lab at this time so we could easily spend a lot of time getting where it needs to be. Or we could make it work right off the bat. This is an arena that is uncharted at this time. I know how to make the load shafts work. When you think about the costs of load shafts at $100 and the resulting $10.00 for the knife steel is not much and is actually much cheaper than the 52100 we are working now, considering all the research, time and effort put into it.
Maybe there are some folks on the form who could get some information for us. I am going to try Monday. Usually I run into a road block real quick, if any makers or lurkers or members can help it will be appreciated.
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- Jun 25, 2001
- Messages
- 8,474
Ed Fowler said:
ED can you get me a JD Part number on that shaft
I'll do some checking too..I've been a dealer in parts
for some time and I may be able to get some answers..
ED just wondering your thoughts? be cause of your statement
"All our knife work came after they became load shafts."
I'm not trying to put you in a spot there..
concerning the heat treated shaft..
once you forge it , you are thinking some of the shaft heat treatment remains in that shaft from the makers of it??
wouldn't it be gone once you hit critical ?
or as I think ..
I'm thinking that the finished product from JD would be a test in itself
for the steel
passing their spec's.
you might say a testament of their own steel
through the heat treat. as you could say a knife should be..
saying that this steel has been proven..
and I also wonder if a new shaft would be indeed the same??
wondering ,, because, it's possible that the act of the shaft being used
may have some effect on the steel..used as in bending, age of it, ecct,
in the line of thought that for a time after the heat treating the steel still is changing. but for how long would be the question..
this I'm sure will be very controversial, but I'd bet you would agree
that as you reach the top end of anything it's the little things that still
make a difference for the quest we're on..
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- Jul 21, 2001
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Hello Dan:
You posed some very interesting thoughts.
One of the men on our team for the High Performace Blade stated that "Nothing good can happen to a piece of steel being used." This statement put us on a set of experiments that finally proved his statement.
No mechanic I have talked to have ever seen a broken Load Control Shaft, they wear on the ends and soon the seals cannot prevent oil loss. This is the only reason they are replaced. I do not believe that this use would harm the steel, but if our friend's statement is correct the use would do them no benefit.
We don't have access to our lab right now so no conclusive experiments are possible. I personally do not wish to take the time that I could be devoting to our work with 52100 to explore fully the issues with 5160.
Last summer the wheels fell of of our quest for the ultimat blade. Suddenly everything we had been doing was questionable. After much trial and tribulation on my part, Rex devoted a lot of time and identified an event that happened before we started on the specific piece of steel we were working on. We are now working on thermal cycles that put all the steel to an equal starting point. This is pretty complicated and all the results are not in at this point in time. The fact remains that any event in the development of a piece of steel can have very strong influences on a finished blade.
The first bar out of a pour will differ from the last bar. We now identify bars as individuals and develop specific procedures for each as an individual.
This may not be significant for the average knife, but explains what at one time was just one of those things. Bladesmiths who are comitted to making their best knives will gain a lot of insight when the etch all their blades.
I will contact my John Deer Dealer tomorrow and find the part number for the largest Load Control Shaft available.
Thanks for asking some very significant questions. When we get our book out many of these thougts will be explained, there are so many variables it is impossible to cover them all without lots of words.
I sincerely appreciate the thoughts you return me to.
You posed some very interesting thoughts.
One of the men on our team for the High Performace Blade stated that "Nothing good can happen to a piece of steel being used." This statement put us on a set of experiments that finally proved his statement.
No mechanic I have talked to have ever seen a broken Load Control Shaft, they wear on the ends and soon the seals cannot prevent oil loss. This is the only reason they are replaced. I do not believe that this use would harm the steel, but if our friend's statement is correct the use would do them no benefit.
We don't have access to our lab right now so no conclusive experiments are possible. I personally do not wish to take the time that I could be devoting to our work with 52100 to explore fully the issues with 5160.
Last summer the wheels fell of of our quest for the ultimat blade. Suddenly everything we had been doing was questionable. After much trial and tribulation on my part, Rex devoted a lot of time and identified an event that happened before we started on the specific piece of steel we were working on. We are now working on thermal cycles that put all the steel to an equal starting point. This is pretty complicated and all the results are not in at this point in time. The fact remains that any event in the development of a piece of steel can have very strong influences on a finished blade.
The first bar out of a pour will differ from the last bar. We now identify bars as individuals and develop specific procedures for each as an individual.
This may not be significant for the average knife, but explains what at one time was just one of those things. Bladesmiths who are comitted to making their best knives will gain a lot of insight when the etch all their blades.
I will contact my John Deer Dealer tomorrow and find the part number for the largest Load Control Shaft available.
Thanks for asking some very significant questions. When we get our book out many of these thougts will be explained, there are so many variables it is impossible to cover them all without lots of words.
I sincerely appreciate the thoughts you return me to.
- Joined
- Jun 25, 2001
- Messages
- 8,474
Thanks Ed
what you say is so true
The fact remains that any event in the development of a piece of steel can have very strong influences on a finished blade.
up to the time we get steel we only have fact sheets to go by.
and what ever happens to the steel before that we can only guess,
when you say
One of the men on our team for the High Performace Blade stated that "Nothing good can happen to a piece of steel being used."
I wonder going back in time, what a maker told me, I believe to be true,
"he said that steel liked to be rolled better than beat."
of course rolling it is the way steel is finished most the time from the foundries.
so in forging one has to be very careful in the way it's forged so to not cause a variable of his own in the bases of experiments. and of course as you say we have
the unknown events in the manufacturing of the steel to contend with too.
you said you
identified an event that happened before we started on the specific piece of steel we were working on.
I'd be real interested in what that was ED .
on another thread, Mete brought up a good point in a posting I made.
and said.
I am firm believer in, learn by the mistakes of others and that will save me a lot of time.
thanks for your time ED when you get me that Number I'll see what I can find out for you..
what you say is so true
The fact remains that any event in the development of a piece of steel can have very strong influences on a finished blade.
up to the time we get steel we only have fact sheets to go by.
and what ever happens to the steel before that we can only guess,
when you say
One of the men on our team for the High Performace Blade stated that "Nothing good can happen to a piece of steel being used."
I wonder going back in time, what a maker told me, I believe to be true,
"he said that steel liked to be rolled better than beat."
of course rolling it is the way steel is finished most the time from the foundries.
so in forging one has to be very careful in the way it's forged so to not cause a variable of his own in the bases of experiments. and of course as you say we have
the unknown events in the manufacturing of the steel to contend with too.
you said you
identified an event that happened before we started on the specific piece of steel we were working on.
I'd be real interested in what that was ED .
on another thread, Mete brought up a good point in a posting I made.
and said.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2744317#post2744317mete said:
I am firm believer in, learn by the mistakes of others and that will save me a lot of time.
thanks for your time ED when you get me that Number I'll see what I can find out for you..
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thanks ED
in the JD price book they call it a pin..
and the list price is $105.00
if they shipping it for that price it's either from the suppler or your getting a deal on it.
the dealer gave me the JD number so I'll shake some tree's and see what falls out.. will let you know..
in the JD price book they call it a pin..
and the list price is $105.00
if they shipping it for that price it's either from the suppler or your getting a deal on it.
the dealer gave me the JD number so I'll shake some tree's and see what falls out.. will let you know..
- Joined
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- Messages
- 8,474
I'm finding that getting info out of JD is like pulling teeth out of a running bear..
R52185-- John deer part number for a 4630 tractor Load Control Shaft also none as a pin,, big pin
I've written to 15 Dealers now and waiting for a reply.
Hello Parts/service department.
My Name is Dan Gray
The John deer part number for a 4630 tractor Load Control Shaft is
--R52185-- this shaft is made from ...steel 5160 and not limited to that one part number.
what I need is, do you know the foundry that makes the steel for these shafts (also called pins) for JD
,,,,,,,,,,,,,I know it's a stupid sounding question.
the reason i need to know is a long story, and not to do with the part itself it's the steel for a different use
I'm interested in.
I'm a custom Knife Maker and this is one of the steels in our trade that is used,
and some of the guys will only use the 5160 from JD load shafts believing it a very high quality steel
than any other 5160 steel from other foundries. not saying that it's not from a multitude of other
foundries anyway, this is what I'm trying to find out.
I'm also in the small engine and auto trade and I told these guys I'd try to find out for them.
I know your time is valuable, but if you'd take a moment and fw: my mail to someone that has answers, you'd make me a happy Man.
these places will not help me because they say it has to be a dealer generated inquiry from the dealer to John-Deere.
electronically
1-800-JDlawns 1-800-535-2967 customers 1-800-537-8233
my local JD Dealer says he doesn't know where to start.??
and says that the steel could also be imported because JD is using imported products also..
and I'm thinking I'll get the same with other dealers also. I hope you can help me..
by the way,, do you have any of these shafts that are no longer useable we're not limited to that one part number..
it's the steel in the tractor Load Control Shaft's (pins) we're looking for..
thanks again for your time I hope I haven't found another dead end...
Dan Gray
OK we'll see if I get any replies. I just got one that said they would try to find out for me..
that was interesting I got another e-mail from a dealer
I messed up and called the steel 52100 and he said he found that it was
5160 so he's in the right ball park..
the spec's chart he was trying to send me was filtered out as a virus so I didn't get that. but he still didn't get where it's from yet?
R52185-- John deer part number for a 4630 tractor Load Control Shaft also none as a pin,, big pin
I've written to 15 Dealers now and waiting for a reply.
Hello Parts/service department.
My Name is Dan Gray
The John deer part number for a 4630 tractor Load Control Shaft is
--R52185-- this shaft is made from ...steel 5160 and not limited to that one part number.
what I need is, do you know the foundry that makes the steel for these shafts (also called pins) for JD
,,,,,,,,,,,,,I know it's a stupid sounding question.
the reason i need to know is a long story, and not to do with the part itself it's the steel for a different use
I'm interested in.
I'm a custom Knife Maker and this is one of the steels in our trade that is used,
and some of the guys will only use the 5160 from JD load shafts believing it a very high quality steel
than any other 5160 steel from other foundries. not saying that it's not from a multitude of other
foundries anyway, this is what I'm trying to find out.
I'm also in the small engine and auto trade and I told these guys I'd try to find out for them.
I know your time is valuable, but if you'd take a moment and fw: my mail to someone that has answers, you'd make me a happy Man.
these places will not help me because they say it has to be a dealer generated inquiry from the dealer to John-Deere.
electronically
1-800-JDlawns 1-800-535-2967 customers 1-800-537-8233
my local JD Dealer says he doesn't know where to start.??
and says that the steel could also be imported because JD is using imported products also..
and I'm thinking I'll get the same with other dealers also. I hope you can help me..
by the way,, do you have any of these shafts that are no longer useable we're not limited to that one part number..
it's the steel in the tractor Load Control Shaft's (pins) we're looking for..
thanks again for your time I hope I haven't found another dead end...
Dan Gray
OK we'll see if I get any replies.
I just got one that said they would try to find out for me.. that was interesting I got another e-mail from a dealer
I messed up and called the steel 52100 and he said he found that it was
5160 so he's in the right ball park..
the spec's chart he was trying to send me was filtered out as a virus so I didn't get that. but he still didn't get where it's from yet?
- Joined
- Jun 25, 2001
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- 8,474
ED
I got some mixed replies on the 5160 steel
from one dealer I got
Hi Dan; All that i can find on this is that it is JDM 5160 steel. I do not
know the A.I.S.I. # for this spec.
<<PartDrawingDownloadServletfileReferences=SCX.REX.D000.pdf>> Hope this
helps. Thanks. Eddie
you can see he try to send me the PDF file on the steel but my Virus program dumped it I will be contacting him again
this one I got back was not so inviting
Dear Sir,
I've received you request for foundry information on steel 5160.
I've contacted John Deere Waterloo Factory and spoke to Laurie concerning you request.
John Deere will not give out any material information on parts. They guard the proprietary information from manufacturing process closely and do not release that information outside the company.
Sorry I couldn't be of any help.
Sincerely,Anita xxxxxxxx
Parts Mgr.
this is a little contradictory to the last?? now they got me really interested..
I got some mixed replies on the 5160 steel
from one dealer I got
Hi Dan; All that i can find on this is that it is JDM 5160 steel. I do not
know the A.I.S.I. # for this spec.
<<PartDrawingDownloadServletfileReferences=SCX.REX.D000.pdf>> Hope this
helps. Thanks. Eddie
you can see he try to send me the PDF file on the steel but my Virus program dumped it I will be contacting him again
this one I got back was not so inviting
Dear Sir,
I've received you request for foundry information on steel 5160.
I've contacted John Deere Waterloo Factory and spoke to Laurie concerning you request.
John Deere will not give out any material information on parts. They guard the proprietary information from manufacturing process closely and do not release that information outside the company.
Sorry I couldn't be of any help.
Sincerely,Anita xxxxxxxx
Parts Mgr.
this is a little contradictory to the last?? now they got me really interested..
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2001
- Messages
- 2,869
Dan:
Now you are on the frontier I stood on about 15 years ago. I spent some cash on chemistries and found what I was told the load control shafts were very tight specked steel. I could not afford photomicrographs at the time so was happpy with what I had at the time. Then Rex joined me and we nosed in a little further. Rex determined it had a very sophisticated heat treat.
I feel absolutely confident that John Deer has done nothing to hurt the steel and very probably has the knowledge and technology to assure they get exactly what they want. This very probably included the manufacturer or maybe some sub contractor who really knows how to keep within their specks.
If anyone who decides to work with this steel ,they need to be very careful not to heat it above 1750 and are better if they can keep their heat at 1625 and lower. Any thermal excursions above this heat will reduce the high performance qualities of this steel.
There are those who will argue what I have stated, that is OK. My statements iare based on litterly hundreds of test blades, thousands of hours time and most of the times, with pretty good insight.
Most of the informatioin is readilly available in my books, I have developed an Understanding of the steel to such an extent that I can keep the language simple in order that anyone who wishes to develop a high performance blade can do so without needing a scientific text to understand the big words.
Big words have the proclivity to hide knowledge, or a lack of understanding.
I do not criticise John Deer for not releasing critical information, they would be immediately copied and very probably criticised by the men of science who would claim their methods were mystical and only claimed to enhance their position in the industry. When ever you read about a blacksmith who made farm cutting instruments that out performed the competition, he had done a lot of experiments on his own.
One thing that if you can gain the information I would like to know what Load Control Shaft is available that is made of the same stuff and standards that is the largest. This may lead the way to the most economical source of supply available to the blade smiths who want to make their best 5160 blade.
I can easily make 15 honest sized hunters from a single Load Control Shaft or pin if that is they want to call it. At $105 for the shaft that means the blade smith has spent $7.00 for the steel in his knife. While this is quite a bit more that some spend it may very well be the best investement they could make.
I sincerely thank you and appreciate the work you are doing.
Now you are on the frontier I stood on about 15 years ago. I spent some cash on chemistries and found what I was told the load control shafts were very tight specked steel. I could not afford photomicrographs at the time so was happpy with what I had at the time. Then Rex joined me and we nosed in a little further. Rex determined it had a very sophisticated heat treat.
I feel absolutely confident that John Deer has done nothing to hurt the steel and very probably has the knowledge and technology to assure they get exactly what they want. This very probably included the manufacturer or maybe some sub contractor who really knows how to keep within their specks.
If anyone who decides to work with this steel ,they need to be very careful not to heat it above 1750 and are better if they can keep their heat at 1625 and lower. Any thermal excursions above this heat will reduce the high performance qualities of this steel.
There are those who will argue what I have stated, that is OK. My statements iare based on litterly hundreds of test blades, thousands of hours time and most of the times, with pretty good insight.
Most of the informatioin is readilly available in my books, I have developed an Understanding of the steel to such an extent that I can keep the language simple in order that anyone who wishes to develop a high performance blade can do so without needing a scientific text to understand the big words.
Big words have the proclivity to hide knowledge, or a lack of understanding.
I do not criticise John Deer for not releasing critical information, they would be immediately copied and very probably criticised by the men of science who would claim their methods were mystical and only claimed to enhance their position in the industry. When ever you read about a blacksmith who made farm cutting instruments that out performed the competition, he had done a lot of experiments on his own.
One thing that if you can gain the information I would like to know what Load Control Shaft is available that is made of the same stuff and standards that is the largest. This may lead the way to the most economical source of supply available to the blade smiths who want to make their best 5160 blade.
I can easily make 15 honest sized hunters from a single Load Control Shaft or pin if that is they want to call it. At $105 for the shaft that means the blade smith has spent $7.00 for the steel in his knife. While this is quite a bit more that some spend it may very well be the best investement they could make.
I sincerely thank you and appreciate the work you are doing.
- Joined
- Jun 25, 2001
- Messages
- 8,474
yeahup head knocking there will be for years to come
I want to keep on this for a while and see what I can find out
I got my teeth in it and may lose a few before i let go..it's possible that they
add something to it like is being done too L6 and still keeping the same numbers
other than the JDM which is common practice in parts made by other manufactures. saying it's branded with their name,,
like say Husqvarna chain saw bars,, they are all made By the
Oregon bar company now but branded with Husqvarna.
John-Deere yard and garden tractors have Tecumseh engines and many other types of engines but never their own Brand and I know a lot of farmed out parts are coming from over seas for them.. it's a money game..John Deere chain saws were made by echo for years, and to make it worse
are now made by Homelite when one buys John Deere now ( lawn and Garden) you pay for name not the product. not saying the steel is in the same boat here but I do want to know more.
I'll keep you posted..
I want to keep on this for a while and see what I can find out
I got my teeth in it and may lose a few before i let go..it's possible that they
add something to it like is being done too L6 and still keeping the same numbers
other than the JDM which is common practice in parts made by other manufactures. saying it's branded with their name,,
like say Husqvarna chain saw bars,, they are all made By the
Oregon bar company now but branded with Husqvarna.
John-Deere yard and garden tractors have Tecumseh engines and many other types of engines but never their own Brand and I know a lot of farmed out parts are coming from over seas for them.. it's a money game..John Deere chain saws were made by echo for years, and to make it worse
are now made by Homelite when one buys John Deere now ( lawn and Garden) you pay for name not the product. not saying the steel is in the same boat here but I do want to know more.
I'll keep you posted..
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2001
- Messages
- 20,978
Just wanted to jump in and say I am watching this thread very carefully and taking great notes (mental ones too). Please keep the discussion going. I'm sure I'm not the only one interested in High Performance 5160.
Great info Dan & Ed.
Great info Dan & Ed.
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2001
- Messages
- 2,869
Some may wonder why the concern about consistent steel. My latest article in the January issue of Blade features some special knives. The Bowie pictured on page 98 is no spring chicken. She was probably made over 75 years ago. Still her edge is keen and will easily shave hair. Her handle materials have not shrunk, they are very nearly as tight today as they were the day she was made.
When you find a knife like this one, you know that the maker had an absolute command and understanding of the materials he worked with. He knew exactly how long the scales had aged and how much time and devotion to the final product was necessairy. She was well planned, nothing about this knife happened by accident.
The blade shows no imperfections in the steel, no event happened during its development as a knife blade to shorten her life.
Truly great knives can only happen when the blade smith is absolutely obcessed with all the infinite details that when considered individually may seem of little consequence but when all come together the influences of what some consider trivia can make a big difference.
The more we leave to chance the greater the probability of knives that will not stand the test of time and task.
When you find a knife like this one, you know that the maker had an absolute command and understanding of the materials he worked with. He knew exactly how long the scales had aged and how much time and devotion to the final product was necessairy. She was well planned, nothing about this knife happened by accident.
The blade shows no imperfections in the steel, no event happened during its development as a knife blade to shorten her life.
Truly great knives can only happen when the blade smith is absolutely obcessed with all the infinite details that when considered individually may seem of little consequence but when all come together the influences of what some consider trivia can make a big difference.
The more we leave to chance the greater the probability of knives that will not stand the test of time and task.
- Joined
- Nov 24, 1999
- Messages
- 4,981
Just a thought on getting the largest shaft, you need to get a parts manual on JD's largest tractor with a 3 point hitch. The numbering sequence changes frequently, but I think you'll find that the 46XX tractor your talking about now isn't all that big. That particular shaft will probably fit a whole bunch of tractors with that class of 3 point hitch on it (class 2 I would think). You need to go up a class of tractors, I think that would be a 9000 series tractor (for the biggest), but like I said, the numbering scheme chages all the time and they may have come out with new ones. This will probably have about the same range on the lift as the 46 tractor but a higher load capacity. So it would probably be about the same length but bigger in diameter
My friends have some large case and international tractors and they have shafts much larger than 1.5" in diameter. I would guess that JD shafts are bigger on the bigger tractors as well.
My friends have some large case and international tractors and they have shafts much larger than 1.5" in diameter. I would guess that JD shafts are bigger on the bigger tractors as well.