.308 Win Rifle, Your top three choices, make and model, and why?

Anyone have any hands on experience with the Sardius/Technical Consulting International M89SR M14 based bullpup sniper rifle?

m89c.jpg


m89d.jpg


It looks cool, but it says HERE the Israelis are replacing all their 7.62 sniper rifles with the SR25 and/or the MK11 Mod O.
 
Hmmm...Navy SEALs, Army Rangers, IDF Special Forces all recently adopt the SR25 (Mk11 Mod0). Methinks KAC is racking up a pretty good list of customer referrals...

Re: M89SR. I just don't think you can get the appropriate trigger pull for a sniper rifle on any bullpup design. Maybe that's why the Israelis went with the SR25?
 
JB and Mel are going the right direction... For under $400, in a side by shoot off with an HK (@ $1200); I'll go with the CETME. I'm into 600 rounds through it and it handles better than the HK does with regards to felt recoil. However, if it isn't set up by a competent gunsmith, it can have head-spacing problems and have a really stiff action. But once you learn it's abilities... it shoots real sweet with any of the surplus .308 out there. At least in my experience!
 
Gosh, this is a really great thread, thanks to you guys.

What is the advantage of the 'delayed blowback' action of the CETME or HK G3 derivatives?

e-utopia- How would your differentiate between the CETME and the FAL? From a buyers perspective, aftermarket/spare parts, service, etc.

So, FAL is probably your best bet, for a good value. The M1A is much more expensive, but is arguably the most accurate 7.62mm service rifle ever fielded.
Click to expand...

Thank you for that summation, excellent, but could you put a perspective on the performance edge of the M1A/M14?

Sheldon- Thank you for contributing, and for the e-mails. I have been having issues finding information on the web for the 'bush' M1A (SAR-48), do you know any good sites/sources?

How would you differentiate between the Fal and the H&K 91/SA SAR-3/CETME?

Velitrius- I am seeking a main battle rifle. Quite frankly, right now it would be a toy, but I would like to train with it. Evolutionary commitment and all. I feel pretentious saying 'main battle rifle' since my main battle is weight(and I am losing) but that is what I am seeking.

Sid Post- My budget is reasonably flexible, with an upper limit of $2000, though I certainly do not feel the need to pay that much if I can get a 'quality' rifle for less. And, if I know that throwing a couple more dollars at it is a good investment, so be it. Purpose and magazine, see above. No nasty features being looked for currently. But, what is the deal with flash hiders/suppressors legally, can they be added afterward, and effect on performance? (bold added to make it stick out to all the readers)

What is the low end on a Stoner?




I like the look of the FAL, and the issues with getting a pistol grip and aftermarket/spares for a M1A are dissuading me from that.

What are considerations of having ARS build a FAL versus a DSA FAL?
 
1) Springfield Armory M1A, Loaded. Best deal right now. Free scope, $450 value, with purchase until 10/31/02.

2) H&K 91. Expensive, but worth it.
 
Beretta 308 no more needs to be said
fire one out of the box no adjustments and go WOW!
If you can find one now?
 
"How would your differentiate between the CETME and the FAL? From a buyers perspective, aftermarket/spare parts, service, etc."

Based on the budget you indicate, I would suggest the FAL, since you have enough money to get a quality one, as well as some magazines, accessories, ammunition, etc.

"What is the advantage of the 'delayed blowback' action of the CETME or HK G3 derivatives?"

Marginally more reliable (according to some), and unresponsive to changes in ammunition (the FAL has a valve which must be adjusted, when switching between ammunition with different pressures, like light commercial loads and 'hot' military loads). And a bit less costly.

"what is the deal with flash hiders/suppressors legally, can they be added afterward, and effect on performance?"

Basically, the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban divided semiautomatics into two categories: those made prior to the ban ('pre-ban') and those made after the ban ('post-ban'). A rifle which is semi-automatic, and has a detatchable magazine, may not have more than one of the 'evil features', unless it already had at least two, when the ban went into effect.

In other words, pre-ban rifles are also divided into two categories: those which were not 'assault weapons' (legally, these are the same as post-ban rifles), and those which were already 'assault weapons' when the ban went into effect (these are 'grandfathered').

A rifle which was grandfathered under the ban, may have as many 'evil features' added to it as you please. A post-ban rifle (or a non-grandfathered pre-ban) cannot have more than one. The list is: pistol grip, flash suppressor (or even just a threaded barrel, since a suppressor might find its way on there), bayonet lug, grenade launcher, folding stock.

So, what does this mean, to your purchase? Basically, assuming you do not want to spend the extra cash to get a pre-ban rifle, you will be limited in what features you can have. Since the FAL and CETME both have pistol grips, you cannot add any other of the listed features. The M1A does not have a pistol grip, in its normal form, so you could have one of the other features, if you wanted it. For example, you could have a flash suppressor (but you then could not install, or even own, a pistol-grip stock, since that would be considered 'manufacturing an assault weapon', and the BATF would be very peeved with you).

As to whether you need any of these features... well, that goes to intended usage. A flash suppressor would probably be the most common feature to want. The M1A would allow you to have that, as long as you did not add a pistol-grip stock. With the others, you would not be allowed to have one.

Of course, you could always pay more, and get a pre-ban rifle, or get a post-ban, and then wait until September, 2004, when the Assault Weapons Ban expires (assuming that no new legislation is passed, which institutes a new ban).

--JB
 
i would go with the HK mod 91, a bud has one and it shoots great, a little pricey for sure, and lord magazines/etc are HIGH, but my bud bought his in the late 80's for about $1200,w/a bunch of spare mags/etc also, we thought he was crazy lol boy were we wrong huh?, but is a good, accurate reliable rifle, have shot an M1A and a FAL also, but must admit i like the '91, although the M1A would be a very close second, and i do stress i would want a Heckler and Koch manufactured model '91, NOT some "clone" for $1000 or so. BIG difference. just look at them. the HK is a much better looking rifle than any clone i have seen, if i'm wrong, please advise i wouldnt mind having a '91 clone that was any good.......the FAL just wasnt for me, shot fine but didnt fit me well at all, seemed ungainly to me, my bud loves his though, he would skin me if he read this lol


greg
 
I gotta go with the FAL crowd then, Eye. I've played with the SA version and loved the way it handled. Never used one in the MBR capacity, but it has a superb field record.

If you can get your hands on a copy of the August 2002 GUNS magazine, there is an article of interest. They took a DSA version (the SA 58) and beat it all to hell. The testers initially wanted to do a 5000 round test. DSA handed them a rifle and 250 mags and told them to go 10,000 rounds instead. The test crowd used half Black Hills ammo and half Malaysian cheap-ass stuff. Fired all of the ammo in 2 days.

They did all the dirty stuff they could to get it to quit. Threw it into snow and mud, overheated the barrel, neglected to clean it, etc. They had 2 malfunctions. A pin that secured the forearm to the rifle sheared. This was replaced with a bent-over galvanized nail and the test continued. At round 3203 the gas regulator gave up. This is a mil-spec Steyr regulator. Though the rifle could still be fired, they replaced it with a heavy duty DSA regulator. Total time to replace it was 3 minutes.

It is an article worth reading if you are considering a DSA version. I hope this helps alittle.
 
Stoner SR-25 page

Last time I checked, retail was $2500 on a basic SR-25. These are not readily available due to the limited numbers that make it out to the civilian world so, I wouldn't a smokin' deal on one anytime soon. If fact, you are apt to find people are charging more then retail for them.

Subguns "for sale" ad

Since you have the budget, I would seriously consider the Belgian FAL. I am not aware of any post-ban Belgian FAL's so, you can have all the evil features you want.

I would opt for Arizona Response if I had a burning desire for something that is not standard. Something like a bull barrel carbine rifle or a specialized IPSC 3-gun rifle. They will essentially custom build the rifle. If you want a standard rifle, a DSA or Arizona Response would be a toss up.
 
MDP,

IMNSHO, there are 'not so good' MBR's, good MBR's, better MBR's, and everything else...

The reason I emailed you was to tell you of my personal experiences with some of the .308 rifles being mentioned here.

One of my personal motto's for years has been 'Buy Quality and Only Cry Once'...but paying high dollars for something doesn't always make it 'better' quality, and this is one of those times.

That said, some of the 'better' MBR's out there are the SIG AMT, the Stoner SR-25, and maybe a few others. But, do you 'need' that level of rarified air for your 1st purchase? No, you probably don't...besides, they're outside your self imposed financial limit.

There are others out there, the Belgian FN's, the H&K 91's, and the Galil AR/ARM...even the Valmet. And you'll pay alot if you buy one of those too, not because it's 'better', but because it's rarer.

On the other end of the spectrum are the new receiver 'kit' guns, P.I. M-1A's, and other such poor quality/poor workmanship/poor reliability semi-auto .308's. Those I would stay away from. A low price here pretty much denotes junk.

In between the high and low ends noted are firearms like those made by Springfield Armory; the M1A (American made), the SAR 48/FN clone (Brazilian made), and the SAR 3/H&K 91 (Grecian made) clone.

The later two were mil-spec contract over-runs, made under license from FN or H&K, on FN or H&K supplied equipment, and were sold around the world as MBR's. Springfield Armory originally just contracted to have fully built guns delivered to them, where a SA stamp was ALSO applied. The last ones may have been assembled here.

If a person 'needs' to have FN or H&K stamped on their receiver, and feels that stamp is worth an additional $600-$800, so be it.

Also, I used to spend quite a bit of time on the phone with a fellow named Dave Selvaggio...because when SA decided to quit that part of the business due to the new (1994?) import restrictions, Dave had purchased their whole SAR inventory, lock, stock, and barrel...

Thus DSA arms as we know it today was formed...

Anyhoo, comparisons are subjective at best, so I'm not going to tell anyone what they should buy. I will tell anyone that is interested though, that I, me, personally, shot in excess of 10,000 rounds of every freaking kinda .308/7.62, from commercial to mil-spec ammo through my Springfield Armory SAR's with nary a hiccup...(I sure miss shooting those guns...)

If that's not a testimonial, I don't know what is.

On a side note MDP, the 'bush' models of the M1A, and the SAR-48/4800, rifles simply had around 3 or 4 inches taken off the barrel. It doesn't noticeably affect accuracy on a .308 when the barrel is shortened, to within reason, at medium distances up to 400 yds., and makes for a much nicer 'carry' package.

Anyhoo, that's my take on MBR's...YMMV

Also, for anyone reading this that's getting their panties all bunched up at this point..."If you're going to give a guy advice, or challenge his facts; at least do it from personal experience, not from something that you've heard or read..."

Mel

--edited for clarity and 'pelling-- ;)
 
Not that my panties are in a bunch MP, but the reason I had to go with what I "read" on the DSA is simple. I don't have a SA 58 or 10,000 rounds of ammo to test with. The guys at GUNS magazine did. Their final thoughts went thusly:

"Some companies may talk the talk, but the DSA rifle proved capable of walking the walk. They were not only willing to put a rifle up, but Milano allowed us to abuse and overheat it as we saw fit. In the end, DSA's SA 58 exhibited the reliability the FAL design is legendary for. Anyone looking for an accurate, well made .308 battle rifle that is incredibly tough and reliable would do well to consider a DSA inc. SA 58."

Sounded pertinent to the discussion. Granted, the gun rag could have just been giving lip service in return for a free gun, but I gotta think they'd at least put a shred of pertinent feedback in the article.
 
#1 - "Navy Garand": basically an M-1 with an adapter in the breech to take the shorter round. #2 - M-1A: the standard by which all else are judged. #3 - FN FAL/L1A1: 90 countries can't be completely wrong.
 
e-utopia- Thanks for the excellent responses.

If the '94 ban is not re-instated, can I add a flash suppressor to a barrell aftermarket?

Velitrius- I like the summation, MBR for MDP = FAL. That article sounds like a powerful endorsement.

Melvin- I really do appreciate your contribution, especially your emails, and I agree.... 'Buy Quality and Only Cry Once'.

I have to admit, I find the FAL and H&K to be sexier, but I cannot avoid the obvious respect that the M1A/M14 commands. Some of my questions are trying to gather information in order to pierce through my own fantasies, misconceptions, and half-formed notions.


And how much more expensive are M1A/M14 parts and accessories going to run, 10%? Ballpark....

OK, let us drag this issue out into the light.... Does anyone have semi-rational opinions about the pistol grip versus rifle stock debate? Experience?

Also, I have been looking over the H&k offerings, and I admit, I am the type that likes to own a 'suite' of products, and H&K seems to offer that sort of thing. Is H&K at a level of diminishing returns due to their name? And how effective would a .45 ACP carbine be?
 
Excellent link, thank you very much!

Velitrius, big portions of my last post were screwed up badly, so let me try to correct my errors. (btw, love your posts buddy, no troubles here)

A. I was including DSA firearms in the recommended catagory along with Springfield Armories, at least in my head I was...so now I'm putting it in writing. Like you, I only know what I've read about DSA firearms, and it's all been good...and, I've worked with Dave before, back in the early post-S.A. days, and I know he's serious about his product. If the reports are good, I'd tend to believe them.

B. I did some math today, and I think a more accurate (total) number of rounds fired in the past through all of my .308's was closer to 5,000 rounds. The 10,000 number would have to include 7.62 x 39's, and .223's...still, quite a few rounds launched down range. :)

C. My experience was with S.A.'s, so I felt qualified to speak of them...it wasn't that I don't enjoy a difference of opinion, it was just that MDP was asking for opinions based on experience, not opinions based on opinions...

At least that's what I thought he was asking for, and I didn't want to get into a meaningless debate with some airhead who had heard from the friend of a friend that company xyz does such and such...

It's such a bitch to even post something like that...if you don't, you end up debating with airheads, and if you do, you end up explaining to friends that your weren't talking about them...lol ;)

MDP, if you read the comparison thread that diletante linked to in his post, you'll see that for most practical purposes it really boils down to 3 or 4 rifles, and even then the differences are primarily cosmetic...they all rank pretty damn close in all other catagories.

p.s. Why would you want to mistreat your M1A? What did it ever do to you? Maybe you should just buy one of those German guns...I hear that they're into kinky 'stuff' like that...lol

Mel
 
Check out the May 1994 issue of "Guns" Magazine. They did a "Torture Test" with an M1A (Springfield) and a Polytech M-14S. You can find info on the article and maybe the article itself among these GOOGLE SEARCH RESULTS.

I found the following summary HERE

-The M1A was tested for 5000 rounds fired, having 5 jams within the first 1000 rounds, four of them because somehow the gas valve witched to the closed position. There were a total of 45 or so stoppages out of 5000 rounds, most of them being "bolt over Base" stoppages.

-The M-14S fired 440 rounds, and had two incidences of doubling (Rounds 2/3, and 4/5), one other jam, and after a fire started in the forend at round 439, the spring for the op-rod died.

My first-hand experience is limited to a day at the range with a buddy's M1A. I'm just a sucker for the traditional styling. My first choice would still be a Garand. After reading this thread, my second choice would be an M1A Scout-Squad-Aimpoint combination. My third choice would be a good FAL--probably a DSA with a stripper-clip top cover, the FAL Rail Interface Handguard and a forward mounted Aimpoint or scout scope. The Garand, M1A and FAL are time tested. The AR10 and SR25 might be better, but lack the historical appeal.

All that said, if I were actually going to spend the money on guns, I'd buy a .22 Ruger 10/22 and government model pistol for fun and a Glock and Scattergun Technologies 870 for defense and call it good.
 
First, a question for the FAL 'experts': I've heard that some english FAL's do have a last-round bolt hold-open. Is this a matter of certain ones being 'smithed, or did some particular manufacturer offer this?

Now, to MDP's questions:

"If the '94 ban is not re-instated, can I add a flash suppressor to a barrell aftermarket?"

Well, first to clear something up: the Ban will sunset, and cannot be renewed. A replacement would have to be passed through both Houses, and signed by the President (incidentally, Bush did say that he would sign it, if it were presented to him, so this will largely rest with the Congressmen and Senators which we vote for in this election).

Anyway, yes, if the Ban ceases to be, all of its provisions become null, meaning that you can add all the 'evil' features to your rifle, regardless of when it was manufactured, and what it looked like in September of '94.

"OK, let us drag this issue out into the light.... Does anyone have semi-rational opinions about the pistol grip versus rifle stock debate? Experience?"

This is really a matter of personal preferrence, more than anything else. I would suggest finding a well-stocked gun store in your area, and handling various types of rifles, to see which fit you best. (if you haven't handled any MBR's before, you will also have to understand that they are not exactly light in weight, although I don't consider any of them to be overly heavy, either)

"Also, I have been looking over the H&k offerings, and I admit, I am the type that likes to own a 'suite' of products, and H&K seems to offer that sort of thing. Is H&K at a level of diminishing returns due to their name?"

H&K does make a high-quality product. Whether the increase in quality is enough to justify the price, is up to the buyer. For what it's worth, my carry gun is a H&K P7M13, my 'assault rifle' (ie, rifle chambered in an intermediate caliber, in this case 5.56NATO) is a Bushmaster M17S (pre-ban, with the fun&evil flash suppressor), and I think most of the choices for MBR's listed here, would be good.

"And how effective would a .45 ACP carbine be?"

As a MBR? Not very. As a light assault weapon, it would fare pretty well. I've never had an opportunity to shoot one, but the local gun store had a H&K USC in inventory a while back, and it seemed to be a well-manufactured firearm, based on my inspection.

--JB
 
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