3g vs s30v

I would say 3G, but I have to admit that I never did any (formal) testing. I've been using my Fällkniven PXL and TK-2 for a while now, and I can tell you that the edge retention is superb and it is very easy to sharpen. I never use my knives for breaking concrete of to chop down 300 year old oaks, but 3G-steel has been tough enough for me. For really tough jobs, I prefer INFI and CPM-3V.

Regarding S30V, I've had quite different experience ranging from disappointing (Benchmade) to excellent (Spyderco), depending on the knives.
 
nozh2002 said:
Well, Fallkniven is choosing what is available in Japan - they can not do CPM S30V because some Seki manufacturer making knives for them - may be Hattory may be IC-Cut... So they choosed what is closer to CPM S30V by composition. ZDP189 from Hitachy will be much better (William and Henry choise BTW) - to me seems like Takefu did not done very good job even composition is same - results for similar steel from them SG2 were the same - below average.

Of course different people may "feel" about steels differently and my ideas of steels were way different before I started testing, I also thought that CPM 10V will be on top as well as 3G, but turns out after quite a bit of manila rope cutting that it is Dozier D2 and ZDP and SwampRat101 is on top not what I thought would be. I think pressure from PR is hard to overcome without real tests done by yourself.

I would love to see my tests dismissed by some other formal testing - honestly! For me it will be more important to find right answer then be right myself (I am not teenager (unfortunately)). But so far do not see any other doing formal testing :(

Thanks, Vassili.
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Hey Nozh:

I'm not putting down your tests. Your tests are awesome. Thank you for doing them. What I'm saying is that individual knives are not uniform. I've had S30V that chips and won't stay sharp and S30V from the same maker and the same model that doesn't chip and holds a great edge.

There are a lot of variables. You may have a D2 knife, but does that D2 have a chromium content of 11 percent or 13 percent? We don't know. Is the hardness Rc57.6 or Rc60.4? We don't know. Is the grind even? Did the grinder overheat the blade? Or do it correctly? Is the heat treat at the upper range of QC/QAC or the lower end of QC/QAC?

When we buy a knife, we see a knife with specs that cover a fairly wide range for a number of variables. Is your knife at the high end of all those variables or the low end? Did you get a good one? Or a bad one? You don't know. We think a 710 is a 710. It aint'. We think a Manix is a Manix. It aint'.

Your tests are great. Thank you for doing them. But you don't know if the knife you're testing is at the high end of the performance possibilities or at the low end. And the range is quite wide.

This is the HUGE ISSUE that this forum does not address.
 
Twindog said:
Hey Nozh:

I'm not putting down your tests. Your tests are awesome. Thank you for doing them. What I'm saying is that individual knives are not uniform. I've had S30V that chips and won't stay sharp and S30V from the same maker and the same model that doesn't chip and holds a great edge.

There are a lot of variables. You may have a D2 knife, but does that D2 have a chromium content of 11 percent or 13 percent? We don't know. Is the hardness Rc57.6 or Rc60.4? We don't know. Is the grind even? Did the grinder overheat the blade? Or do it correctly? Is the heat treat at the upper range of QC/QAC or the lower end of QC/QAC?

When we buy a knife, we see a knife with specs that cover a fairly wide range for a number of variables. Is your knife at the high end of all those variables or the low end? Did you get a good one? Or a bad one? You don't know. We think a 710 is a 710. It aint'. We think a Manix is a Manix. It aint'.

Your tests are great. Thank you for doing them. But you don't know if the knife you're testing is at the high end of the performance possibilities or at the low end. And the range is quite wide.

This is the HUGE ISSUE that this forum does not address.
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Sure of course all this just some representation to certain level and we can not expect all same knives be identical. However it is still representing what we may expect may be bit more may be bit less. But we can not reject this results just because we know that test objects are not identical.

This is common sense everybody has and use in their life - even it is not mathematically ideal representation but still practical. Also lets not be confused with mathematics and science - last one deals with a lot of uncertainty an the daily basis, while math always kind of ideal. And people who were exposed to science only learning math in school or physics through physics laws which is math again, have wrong idea what science is and how it is going forward.

As I tiered to repeat - to have better representation we need better number of experiments, but for obvious reason (which was not some how clear to me at the beginning) people not doing their own test but demand me to do more! WTF? I did not only do tests but develop and establish working process, hoping that some one else join - but is seems that only effort people like to do - punch buttons on keyboard (not even read - learn what they are talking about).

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Yes, Vassili, I'm not criticizing your tests. Your tests are great. I appreciate the intelligence you put into them. I learn a lot from you. And it would be nice if more people did them. I know how much work they are. I'm just saying that you are testing individual knives and individual knives vary more than people think. No one can expect you to buy 100 knives of each model and test them -- although that would be ideal. I'm just saying that when looking at your tests, remember that individual knives of the same make and model vary, sometimes by quite a bit.

I had a Ritter RSK that was horrible. Chipped and would not stay sharp. I sent it off to Cliff Stamp for his testing. He had the same problem, which he posted here. Is every Ritter RSK like that. Nope. Some -- probably the vast majority -- are awesome. I like that knife. I wish Critter would do one in M4. But if just one Ritter is tested, it won't necessarily be representative of all Ritter RSKs. It might be a close average, or it may be at one end or the other of a fairly wide range of QC/QAC. Knives of lesser quality than the Ritter will have an even wider range of QC/QAC.
 
Twindog said:
Yes, Vassili, I'm not criticizing your tests. Your tests are great. I appreciate the intelligence you put into them. I learn a lot from you. And it would be nice if more people did them. I know how much work they are. I'm just saying that you are testing individual knives and individual knives vary more than people think. No one can expect you to buy 100 knives of each model and test them -- although that would be ideal. I'm just saying that when looking at your tests, remember that individual knives of the same make and model vary, sometimes by quite a bit.

I had a Ritter RSK that was horrible. Chipped and would not stay sharp. I sent it off to Cliff Stamp for his testing. He had the same problem, which he posted here. Is every Ritter RSK like that. Nope. Some -- probably the vast majority -- are awesome. I like that knife. I wish Critter would do one in M4. But if just one Ritter is tested, it won't necessarily be representative of all Ritter RSKs. It might be a close average, or it may be at one end or the other of a fairly wide range of QC/QAC. Knives of lesser quality than the Ritter will have an even wider range of QC/QAC.
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I know that you are not criticizing - this is why I reply this way. Of course knives are different and test is not ideal and as I sad it is only high level sharpness edge retention and many other factors influence results, this is obvious. And this is applicable as well to any tests.

Just as an brain exercise you may take ruler and explain that it is not really accurate that metal ruler with show different results at different temperature and wooden ruler property depends on humidity, that first we need to make sure that ruler is absolutely straight etc, etc, etc... Or we may take weight scales and talk it down same way.

However this does not prevent me to use ruler to measure length - with all it's inaccuracy, influenced by temperature etc... It is enough for practical use. So my tests - clearly shows that most likely Buck has better HT then other. That most likely Dozier D2 outperforms majority of steels. That AUS8 is far from CPM S30V.

But only what I can say for sure is that 3G during my tests stay way behind CPM S30V and other Takefu Special Steel - SG2 also show results below average. Now how to interpret it - is up to you, but if someone do not like it or disagree, only one valid way to dismiss it, at least for me, should be provide test results which will show opposite. But nobody doing this, so far, just angry punching keyboard (I am not talking about you of course).

Thanks, Vassili.
 
nozh2002 said:
but if someone do not like it or disagree, only one valid way to dismiss it, at least for me, should be provide test results which will show opposite.
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:) Rrrright. The only way for someone to criticize the movie is to shoot one first. Or to criticize a book, you write another first, then you can express your opinion.

So far the angriest one is you btw.
 
Vassili - I haven't been around Bladeforums for a while now. Where can I read about your tests?
 
Hi Michael,

I have done quite a bit of testing of S30V both in the lab and in the field, "real-world-testing", and S30V has proen itself to be an excellent knife steel.

I have not personally tested 3G. However, in defense of 3G, I will say say Takefu is one of the serious foundries in Japan. They've made a lot of really good steels, such as VG-10. I will also say that the company that makes Fallkniven's knives is an excellent maker and has always recommended good steels and they always follow the foundries strict direction on heat treat.

In the end, you will have to test for youself.

sal
 
Gator97 said:
Sigh. To compare two steels as you want to do, may be we all do, you have to have identical(or very close) blade geometry, identical sharpening angle and identical cutting sequences.
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It may be more appropriate to rate 'blades' vs. 'steel' due to the exact conditions you mention above. Two blades, on two knives, with different steels, different geometries, different edge grinds, even different blade finishes will make two knives perform very differently. To compare two steels you'd need identical blades crafted and finished identically using the two steels.

But I don't think that's what the OP wanted, or intended. Heck, for a specific style of knife and intended use, 440C may be the best steel, where high carbon spring steel may be the best at another.
 
May be. My response was to Vasilis test results. He uses different thickness, grind, blade geometry, coating and edged knives to promote his conclusions about steel wear resistance and edge holding.
Making a statement that 3g is worse or better than S30V based on his tests is incorrect.
 
No one's tests are definitive. But all tests are good as they add to our understanding of the materials tested.

We have a lab just for testing. We've introduced many different materials into our industry. But I still reserve final judgement on a new material until we've had "real-world-testing" by people using the product in their everday challenges.

Vassili's information is always interesting as is his point of view.

sal
 
I agree that that no one's tests are definitive.
However, depends what statements/conclusions one is making based on the test(s).
 
Samael said:
But, as has been mentioned by others, the heat treat is everything. Stick with a reputable manufacturer with a proven track record and you'll love the stuff.
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^^^ This has also been my experience. Even knives in the same steel but from different makers can have very different qualities. Heat treat and perhaps other characteristics seem to make a huge difference.
 
Given the choice I'll take the 3G. My fallkniven juni is like a scalpel, as well as other models I've had in 3G. The laminated cobalt steel is pretty damn good too. Also both steels respond very well to stropping. I've nothing against s30v and have quite a few different knives with it but I've become a Fallkniven junkie. To each their own
 
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