3V modified - The lost Crucible steel

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I enjoy reading patents from steel companies, it reveals information about new products and research often not available otherwise. One thing I'm surprised there isn't more talk about is a steel Crucible patented but never sold - an improved 3V: https://www.google.com/patents/US7615123

How was it improved? The primary change was that they reduced vanadium and replaced it with niobium:
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Niobium carbides are also hard, MC carbides, reported to be slightly harder, in fact. So when getting the best "bang for your buck" for carbide volume, niobium is just as good if not better. That way, the steel can have a low volume of carbides for high toughness, but good wear resistance due to those carbides being extremely hard.

Why replace vanadium with niobium? In the patent they state that, "it was discovered that adding niobium to a cold-work tool steel composition results in a larger driving force for precipitation of MC type-Nb-rich primary carbides, which in turn leads to a finer distribution of carbides." The driving force they are talking about is how "strong" of a carbide former niobium is. If you add carbon to steel you get iron carbides. If you add enough chromium you get chromium carbides instead. If you add vanadium you get vanadium carbides instead. It all depends on the "driving force" for carbide formation for the given elements. Niobium has an extremely high driving force for carbide formation and even tiny amounts of niobium leads to the formation of niobium carbides. The surprise here is that they are saying that this increased driving force led to smaller carbides. Typically, the stronger the driving force the higher the temperature the carbides form, even in the liquid steel during casting. When they form at very high temperature they tend to coarsen more, because diffusion is faster. So it is somewhat of a surprise that a higher driving force for carbide formation led to a reduction in carbide size. Niobium alloying is somewhat limited in conventional steels for exactly this reason - the carbides become too large and toughness is reduced. Therefore, apparently something different is occurring with powder metallurgy which led to a reduction in carbide size instead.

Crucible researchers created melts of the steel in two stages, a 50 lb heat which they created with the Laboratory Gas Atomizer (LGA) and a 650 lb heat which they melted with the Pilot Gas Atomizer (PGA). The carbide size was similarly small when compared with alloy "A" which is the original 3V:
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This refined carbide size led to an improvement in toughness, particularly in the transverse direction (note it is mislabeled as bend fracture strength):
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The original 3V transverse toughness is only 25% of longitudinal, a surprisingly poor value. The new steel, however, has near parity between transverse and longitudinal toughness, likely due to the improved carbide size and distribution. Wear resistance, however, was similar or slightly improved.

So if this steel was so much better why did it never materialize? That is hard to say since I never heard anything about it at the time. Perhaps they had issues when making full size heats, or that the properties weren't as good in full production. Maybe they determined the improvement wasn't enough to sell more steel. Or they were worried that customers would lose confidence in their current steel if such large improvements are possible. One clue is the date at which the patent was published: November 10, 2009, which is several months after Crucible filed for bankruptcy. Crucible sold off their research facilities and lost all of their research engineers in September 2009. So if any work was remaining to scale up the steel that likely ended abruptly. It's too bad because it looks like a nice steel.
 
thank you for the insight into this. hopefully someone has a connection that can comment further on the subject about any future availability.
 
thank you for the insight into this. hopefully someone has a connection that can comment further on the subject about any future availability.
Perhaps if there was enough push for it the current Crucible company could produce the modified 3V for sale.
 
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Perhaps if there was enough push for it the current Crucible company could produce the modified 3V for sale.
who would push for it? CPM3V is marketed as more impact resistant than A2/D2 and more wear resistant than S7. but when you factor in costs, does industry buy in? if a 3V tool lasts twice as long, but if it costs 3 times as much, why use it?
 
who would push for it? CPM3V is marketed as more impact resistant than A2/D2 and more wear resistant than S7. but when you factor in costs, does industry buy in? if a 3V tool lasts twice as long, but if it costs 3 times as much, why use it?
Push from knifemakers. There would have to be enough potential sales in knives to justify the cost of a full heat of the material.
 
Composition & results inline with my expectation of how/what 3V should be... I would buy/hoard a bunch of Mod3V PGA/Run .
 
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who would push for it? CPM3V is marketed as more impact resistant than A2/D2 and more wear resistant than S7. but when you factor in costs, does industry buy in? if a 3V tool lasts twice as long, but if it costs 3 times as much, why use it?

That's easy. Downtime to replace the tool is sometimes more expensive than the cost of the tool. It won't make sense in some cases but it does in a lot of them.

Still I don't know what industries are using PM steels in their tools. I've seen 10v and 15v used, but the vast majority was still A2/D2/S7 where steel was used and carbide where it wasn't.
 
PM steels are still a much smaller market than the broader conventional steel market. But that doesn't mean there isn't a place for it. Obviously they are selling some of it. Bohler and Uddeholm continue to develop more PM steels.
 
I know, I just want to know where it goes and what it's doing because it interests me, having only rarely seen it in use in my tool and die career.
 
[QUOTE="kuraki, post: 17794857, member: 454442"Still I don't know what industries are using PM steels in their tools. I've seen 10v and 15v used, but the vast majority was still A2/D2/S7 where steel was used and carbide where it wasn't.[/QUOTE]
it is hard to tell. you get a chunk of metal wrapped in waxpaper with a part number. In the forging plant I worked, most tools(punches, dies, holding fixtures) were H13, some pieces that didn't see high heat were 4140, S7 Or A2. some cold forge punches and dies were M2. I think some of the tooling used for ceramic processing may be stainless pm steel as we had long tool life while processing titanium powder dough that was very alkali.
so to see this new steel, we need to convince AKS and NJSteelBaron to underwrite a full heat.
 
who would push for it? CPM3V is marketed as more impact resistant than A2/D2 and more wear resistant than S7. but when you factor in costs, does industry buy in? if a 3V tool lasts twice as long, but if it costs 3 times as much, why use it?

The reason that consumers are interested in custom hand made knives is because they are made with better materials and workmanship than you can get in a mass produced knife. Cost is less if an issue with high end products.

If we can buy better steel and give it an optimum heat treat, all the better for the end user.

Hoss
 
The reasons that users adopt a particular type of steel can be purely economic. I started going to the Belgian show in 2008 and in 2009 and 2011 I brought some small items to the show that some of the Dutch and Belgian guys could not easily get over there like grinder parts and some other stuff . so when some of those guys came to their first blade show , Toni Oostendorp brought some 115W8/1. 2442 steel . This stuff is like a Hitachi blue #2 with 50% more tungsten. The formula was written on the bar in grease pencil and I showed it to Kevin Cashen. His comment was that it looks like it would make a really good slicer perhaps even better than 52100. I was pretty impressed with the results as well as the customer so when I went back to Belgium I bought a little bit more of it from Achim Wirtz Who had produced a small batch of it at Lohmann steel. He told me that The steel had originally been used for metal cutting bandsaw’s but that the accountants decided that more traditional high-speed steel lasted longer. What they discovered was yes the high-speed steel would cut for a bit longer but only if you could keep the teeth from breaking off of the sawblade. The new stuff lacked the inherent toughness of the 115W8. So maybe it was not actually cheaper in real use but by that time it was too late because they had already switched.
 
Devin, I agree. but to get a company to make a batch, they want to see $$$ before starting. as said, we need to convince AKS, NJSteelBaron, SB Specialty Metals and related companies to underwrite the batch.
 
I think I remember this modification. My rep was going to bring me some to test, and then she and the whole company went away.

It would be interesting to try if it came available again.
 
Another odd thing about the modified 3V is that there is a tungsten addition. Presumably to improve hot hardness or the hardness during an upper temper. However, why tungsten and not just more molybdenum? The patent doesn’t say. Maybe just because that’s what Cru-Wear has.
 
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