3V, O1, 52100

D

Don G

Joined
Jul 22, 1999
Messages
272
I appreciate everyone who responded to my post "D2 vs. A2." Now, I would like to ask, what are the advantages and disadvantages of 3V, O1 and 52100? Thanks.
 
Per comparisons on paper CPM 3V seems to be an almost ideal knife steel, with wear resistance as good as or better than D2 and shock resistance that is supposed to approach S7 levels. Other CPM steels like 10V have even better wear resistance but the toughness is much lower. Another interesting CPM steel is 9V, which offers wear resistance and toughness between 10V and 3V, but the hardness is in the lower 50s, like Randalls.
 
I can't speak much to 3V, as my experience is limited with this material. What I can do is compare 0-1 and 52100 from my tests. O-1 is more forgiving of mistakes during the forging and heat treating processes than 52100. If each is given a "simple" hardening/tempering treatment (single hardening and tempering) 0-1 will cut nearly the same amount of cuts on a 1/2" hemp rope. Multiple quenches have little if any effect on how an 0-1 blade will perform. With 52100 it is a different story. If given correct multiple quenches and tempering cycles, 52100 will leave 0-1 in the dust. As an example, a multiple treated blade of 52100 has out performed 0-1 in every test I have conducted, from number of cuts on hemp, to edge flexes, in chopping, and 90 degree bend tests. IMHO 0-1 is also a little faster to rust/tarnish. When I recommend steels for aspiring bladesmiths, I usually recommend 0-1 or 5160 as a starting point, since both are very forgiving of forging and heat treat errors. Both make an exceptional blade, but neither are an equal for the overall performance of 52100.
http://www.mtn-webtech.com/~caffrey

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Ed Caffrey
"The Montana Bladesmith"


 
Ed,

Very informative...

Not to get too far off the subject but what is your experience and/or opinion of 1095 when compared to 5160 and 52100?

jj
 
I know there is some Cr in 52100, does it help corrosion resistance, or is it all bound up in carbides?
Aaron

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amacks@nist.gov
Don't forget to pay your taxes...they eventually become my knives:)

 
Jeffj: 1095 is a good edge holder/cutter, but it lacks the toughness that you get out of a multiple quenched 5160 blade. In other words at the same hardness level, the edge of a 5160 blade will cut a bit better, and will be flexible. 1095 of the same harness is very likely to chip when stressed. The multiple quench has no benifit on 10XX series steels per my tests.
amacks: The Cr. content is not high enough in 52100 to help with corrosion resistance. The level needs to be about the 12% range for that. (example: D-2 has 12.5% Cr. and it will still stain and lightly rust.) The Cr in 5160 and 52100 helps with the depth of hardening, and although I can't explain it without writing a volume, the Cr. is what makes the multiple quench so effective on the 51 and 52 series steels.
http://www.mtn-webtech.com/~caffrey

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Ed Caffrey
"The Montana Bladesmith"


 
As for Tom Mayo & 3-V, 10-V does the same thing!
Left a blade out in the shop in the vise overnite...the next morning a fine patina of rust had started to develop.
 
I have not had a problem with 10V or 3V rusting, however I do tend to coat them with Marine Tuf-Cloth on a fairly regular basis.

-Cliff
 
Having worked with both 10-V and 3-V, I think they are both great steels. The 10-V is likely the best edgeholder I have worked with. The 3-V has great wear resistance coupled with good toughness. Yup, they both rust, but as far as that goes, what Darrel said.

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www.simonichknives.com
 
Has anyone tried 9V ? Although the suggested working hardness is lower than with 3V and 10V it's in the range of a knife like a Randall, say mid to lower 50s, and in that range seems to be as tough as 3V at a bit higher hardness but offers quite a bit more wear resistance. Being slightly softer it might not only be easier to touch up, it might kind of 'self sharpen' with use as Boye describes some of the properties of the dendritic steels that he offers. 'Self sharpen' might be too ambitious of a term, but exposing more carbides as the steel wears should offer some more tooth for cutting. Such a property might be an advantage when cutting softer materials, but obviously not when cutting hard materials as the loss of edge geometry will probably be the biggest problem.
 
I forged a test blade out of 3V 1 1/4" round and it performed ok on hemp rope --When I say ok it would out perform most blades but not a multiple quench 5160 or 52100. It broke at about 120 deg.in a vise but this was a 3/16" blade 4/12" long and the grain was very tight. both pieces are still in my shop and have not rusted... no special treatment other than the hand sanding to 1200 grit. and polish on a buffer. I've got two more blades
that I'm going to test with different heat
treat and tempering. So far It's pretty hard
to find anything that will stand up to 52100
when it is properly heat treated.....For toughness and edge holding....in combination.

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http://www.imt.net/~goshawk
Don't walk in tradition just because it feels good!!!!!
Romans 10:9,10
Hebrews 4:12-16
Psalm 91

 
On the 3V test blade .... do you recall what the hardness was ? The toughness drops in half going from 58 to 62, and that's evidently with a double or triple temper.

Someone else mentioned doing triple quenches and tempers on 1095 in another thread. Which steels respond to such a treatment ?
 
Johno,
Although I have not tested all the steels with a multiple quench (and most likely never will), I have found that those steels that possess a mild to moderate (moderate meaning not more than 5%) Cr. content respond very well to this type of process. There are a couple of very simple steps that actually serve to enhance grain structure during the multiple quench process. When I first started this process on my cutlery, I thought that the steel was getting "softer" after each quench cycle, but after having several samples spectrographed, I discovered that the grain was being refined with each successive quench cycle.....up to general number of quench cycles. I can't present you with undisputable scientific proof, but I certainly believe in it. During these tests I was so certain that there was something major, that I was either doing right, or wrong, and only when the spectrograph results came in, did I realize that in knifemaking, it is more often than not the "little" steps that make either monumental improvements, or heartbreaking failures.

http://www.mtn-webtech.com/~caffrey

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Ed Caffrey
"The Montana Bladesmith"


 
Johno
I made some scratch testers from hardened
and different tempered pieces of 1095 for hardness testing. I haven't had them tested for accuracy but useda chart from the mfg. on temp. temps. The test on the 3V test blade was 62 and that may be why it didn't cut as well as I expected it to. On my blades of 52100 58rc seems to be the best.
goshawk

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http://www.imt.net/~goshawk
Don't walk in tradition just because it feels good!!!!!
Romans 10:9,10
Hebrews 4:12-16
Psalm 91

 
Goshawk :

It's pretty hard to find anything that will stand up to 52100 when it is properly heat treated.....For toughness and edge holding....in combination.
Click to expand...

What kind of performance do you get from 52100 as say compared to 1095? How much of an improvement do you see, and what kinds of things do you do to evaluate it?

-Cliff
 
If having some but not over about 5% Cr enables improvements with a multiple quench then maybe O1, A2, and perhaps 9V and 10V (both just a hair over 5%) will also respond, in addition to 5160 and 52100. It seems reasonable to think that it produces a more refined grain, as it sounds like it produces tougher blades as well as ones that take and hold a finer edge. It could also be doing what the CPM steels seem to be designed to do, which is resulting in more even dispersion of materials in the steel, maybe with more opportunity to do so via diffusion. I couldn't turn up much with a simple web search, other than that the Oregon knife makers had a symposium where the question was evidently posed to a Crucible rep. Did anyone attend that ?


 
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