.40 Cal Vs Animals

I highly recommend a revolver. .357 is a very versitile round. I would prefer .44mag, although where I live all I have is blacks, Javalina, cats, and 2 legged vermin. So my carry gun of choice is a .357 for back woods. I have taken deer, javalina, and little stuff with mine. Do some research on rounds and you can come up with some VERY potent loads chambered for it. Although, be careful with that Model 60, the frame isn't designed for extremely hot loads. I have seen S&W's blown up several times. Although most commercial loadings seem to be fine. I found a Ruger Security six, half lug, adjustable sights, 4" barrel from a deploying troop for 100 bucks. I have seen them go used for just over 200. That way you don't have to worry about banging it up. Mine still holds under 4 inches at 50 meters with match FWC's.

I think that that Kahr makes good firearms, my wifes back up duty gun is a K9, which she loves. Honestly though, the best gun is the one that you are most profecient with, and the one your gonna have on you when an incident occurs. Practice! Train, train, train. I would rather have an expert pistol shot on my side with a .22, than an untrained one with a .454.

Enough about guns though, honestly, I think your chances of having a violent encounter with a 2 legged vermin, far outway any chances of an animal attack. Avoidance, is a good policy for both.

Just my .02
 
My only .02 cents here would be to use the heaviest non expanding bullet you could find and practice.
 
EmsRescueGuy said:
Thanks Chris I have fired both the 23 (wich is my brothers EDC) and the 23C I am still debating but I also wonder about the C in "field conditions" any extra hole is an extra spot for gunk

I am probably going to go with the .357 at some point (a model 60) 3 inch bore. My reasoning is the same as you stated, the versitility. i like the idea of loading the first chamber with Shot in great for snakes etc. .plus the fact that my girlfriend loves my current Model 60 (38) and doesent like the Kahr and since she often accompanies me I would rather have something she would use Just in case.

I will still probably carry the Kahr this summer No matter what it is better than Bare hands or a knife against any predator.
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Do not get the comp for every day use. It is really made specifically for competition shooting. You see, in the nighttime, that muzzle flash completely destroys your night vision and makes it impossible to sight.

As for the .40 issue, all I know is this- I have never seen real country people carrying anything but a .45 or .357 mag.

However, if you do choose to go .40, I would suggest getting some very powerful bullets. I forgot the name, but they make ones now that can basically turn a .40 into a .45 with the same recoil, etc. google it, or check out gun shows for it.
 
Fortunately I was never in a position where I had to test out a gun's stopping power on humans, but I've done it quite often on game. Even a heavy boar is something totally different than a man, not to mention bears, or African game, which is a totally different ballgame. Especially when already wounded it may take well more than one additional shot to finally drop a boar or a bear. And here I wouldn't take any chance.

The reason why the .40 is so popular is probably because it is more capable than the 9mm Luger, but not with the punishing recoil of the 10mm Auto. It is, however, nowhere in comparison to the 357, which it what I would carry if I was heading into dangerous game territory without a rifle. The 200 grain .40 bullet is practically useless on heavy game, probably even on a heavy boar.

Then, every gun is just as good as the man who shots it, that's why I probably wouldn't carry a .44 mag. A bear runs the 100 yds. in less than 7 seconds, and I don't know too many guys who can put a bullet from a .44 securely into a vital spot of a charging bear. Plus, it's heavy as shit and does no good in a backpack.

Handguns in the wilderness are the last resort, they actually do a shitty job on dangerous game. Why not carry a small, lightweight rifle? In my eyes even a light .270 single shot with no scope is better than any handgun. You can use it to hunt and for self defense.
 
EmsRescueGuy said:
I will be carrying this summer during some out door excursions and my only two Carry guns are an older SW J frame (38 sp) and a Kahr K40. I know the 40 cal has a good reputation as a man stopper but i havent heard much about it as it pertains to animals.


Does anyone have experience With .40 cal as a defensive arm against 4 legged predators or as a "survival" hunting arm (I am not planning on hunting but just in case).

I am specifically interested if anyone has heard of it being used against Bears.

Funds permitting I may be adding a 3 inch .357 to my collection and/or a glock 23C. but this may not be any time soon.
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I live where only black bears live. I carry a 9mm everywhere I have a ccw.
I have come into contact with only a few black bears here. All have run or ignored me when they saw me. My glock is for people. Shot placement is key on anything. So is penetration. But my 9mm will do the job of a .50 cal. on humans. If you shoot someone in the foot with a shotgun they may live. shoot them in the head or eye socket with a .22 and they may die. If I double tap a human in the heart and one to the head with my 9mm, call the coroner. On a bear I would probably scare it more than anything. Unless I could hit it broad side with all 19 rounds in my hi cap. sorry if i repeated anyone here as I scanned posts very quickly. My short answer is If I were going to Alaska I would just pack a .50 cal S&W. Also note most bear attacks are so fast you wont have time to draw you pistol in the first place...
 
I agree very much with Dialton, if attack from a 4-legged predator is a sincere concern, then this is not a time to skimp. If you need a firearm, you need it right away and nothing else will do. On most game that one would be worried about, it's not wise to drop below a .44 magnum in general. A bear would be a shining example of this. You also need to load with appropriate ammunition. Since the incredibly thick hide on many animals is a real barrier, you want pentration. Hard cast or heavy metal rounds will be a good choice here.

You also seem to prefer autos, but I would submit that you can potentially get a much lighter package in a revolver than the auto, when you jump up to the caliber levels you need. The auto requires a disproportionate size increase to handle the extra pressures/recoil than does the revolver (think Desert Eagle in .44 versus a S&W .44).

A compensator is also unnecessary and will only serve to help ruin your vision at night.

This suggestion is never well received, but I'd also suggest that a handgun is a pretty poor substitute for a rifle when in that sort of environment. A solid, lightweight bolt action isn't going to overburden you, but gives a lot more protection/options. It could be as cheap as a $70 Mosin Nagant M38 to get your hands on a handy little carbine for woods carry. I dare say that many have spent several times that much on blades that do little more than sit on a shelf.
 
SkunkWerX said:
Chef, we have all heard these stories of people pumping a bear full of shots from a pistol and still being killed.
I'm sorry, but these are Urban Legends.

Bear attacks and Deaths resulting have been very well recorded in North America. The only recorded human death in the past several decades (north america) involving shots fired was this one:
Killed while hiking on the Funny River Trail near Soldotna, Alaska. Investigators found bear blood at the scene, and determined that Cates fired two shots with his rifle scoring at least one hit. The bear was never found.

Fatality from bear attack is pretty far down on the scale.
Lightening strikes kill far more people each year.
http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lls/fatalities_us.html


Bear and Mountain Lion attacks are EXTREMELY rare.

source data:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America_by_decade

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/04/0424_060424_bears.html

http://www.southeasternoutdoors.com/wildlife/fatal-wildlife-attacks.html

http://www.answers.com/topic/list-of-fatal-bear-attacks-in-north-america-by-decade

For best defense against the bear wear a bell, make noise, keep alert.
chef

wise words
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Skunk,

I don't know if anyone ever told you this but I am glad you post here. Although I dispute your facts about bear attacks with firearms involved being by far and large exaggerated.While I agree with you that any animal if fairly rare (exception being feral dog bites) I think that when hiking in bear country follow the words of wisdom and carry both a gun and pepper spray. I would rather come out of a draw with red eyes and the embarrassment of pointing a gun at a Marmot than the thought of hopping around on a titanium leg.

OR

We can all carry a Busse FBM with dayglo orange scales, draw it and tell the bear about the benefits of being stabbed with INFI over competing brands of hyper steel. (;) :D )

*Excerpted from the following website
http://www.absc.usgs.gov/research/brownbears/pepperspray/pepperspray.htm

My co-workers, family and myself don’t opt to carry bear pepper spray over firearms for any reason other than it has a better track record than firearms for deterring bear attacks in Alaska. Although fewer bear pepper spray incidents have been recorded than those involving firearms (14 versus, bear pepper spray has been 87% effective in deterring aggressive bears whereas firearms have fared worse. In analyzing the Alaska Bear Attacks Database Project that I and Dr. Steve Herrero have been involved in the past several years, we identified a number of incidents involving firearms and bears with sufficient information for analysis. The following graph presents those raw data:

rpsfirearmsgraphck3.gif


One thing is clear after browsing these data: possession of a firearm is no guarantee that one will emerge from a bear attack unscathed. Closer examination of the Alaskan bear attacks database reveals that some firearms were of insufficient caliber (e.g., .22 caliber) to have effectively dealt with an attacking bear. We also know that some persons were so suddenly attacked that they had little or no time to put the firearm to use. And of course, some persons were not experienced marksmen and that too added to these results. Interestingly, however, we know that the same applies to the persons carrying bear spray: that they were surprised and likely inexperienced. Yet the nearly 90% success rate of those carrying bear pepper spray is an impressive statistic not to be easily dismissed. This leads us to the next question: why is bear pepper spray so effective?


Interesting asides while looking for Skunkwerks data:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/north/story/2003/09/05/sep05gunlawattack05092003.html (stupid canadian laws and redtape cause guide not to carry a gun, gets mauled)

http://www.bearinfo.org/BearSprayvsBullets.pdf (showing the better defense against bears is pepper spray and noise)

http://www.hypernews.org/HyperNews/get/trails/Appalachian/350/1.html
(Documenting a mauling death and the non efficacy of pepper spray)

All told it seems that a bear bell, noise, pepper spray then back up weapon will give us all a false sense of security for when big brown back tracks us, charges and bears down 1500 pounds of lethal force upon the backs of our collective necks.

(By the way when hiking in bear country I really use the bell, a hiking staff, pepper spray and/or a pistol and have never in twenty years of hiking had an encounter with either a bear or mountain lion that ended in anything but them leaving.)
 
For larger game, you will not do well with a .40 SW. I would consider the larger brother of the .40, the 10mm auto. There are warden reports of full sized grizzly bears being dropped with a single 10mm shot. I also agree the .357 Magnum is a good choice also, as is the potent .44...the downside of those is that a smaller frame revolver has much more recoil than a larger frame. If you carry say a snubby .357 Magnum, you should indeed practice with it until you are confident.
 
A good book to read about bear attacks is titled Bear Attacks by Stephen Herrero. It's based on studies if real incidents and helps one understand the differences between black bears and brown/grizzly bears relative to bear/human confrontations. It seems the greatest danger from blacks occur when one of them behaves in a predatory manner towards humans. My wife and I live in a pretty remote cabin in black bear country during the summer. We've been a few feet from bears without a problem. That said, we carry pepper spray and .357mag revolvers as a feel good measure. Whether we could hit one in the right place to stop it before it could hurt us is questionable. If it is charging you there aren't many sweet spots to aim at. Also blacks are known to bluff by charging. So there's a question of when or if shooting should occur. Frankly, I doubt we'll ever need to find out. We are extremely disciplined with our cooking and food garbage routines. Our aim is never to teach a bear that we and our place are associated with food. When we are out hiking, I'm sure the bears are aware of us long before we could ever see them and that's the way they want it. As I said, having the revolver and spray makes us feel better. The danger of having the weapon comes if one thinks it eliminates the need to understand the bear's perspective. I would hate to shoot too soon and wound and possible enrage the bear turning what might have been an otherwise nonviolent situation. Just my 2 cents... regards all. phil
 
If you go with a .40, there are some factory loads that make it a bit better in the woods. Doubletap has a new load out that has a 200 grain bullet going 1,050 fps. I believe Buffalo Bore has some similar loadings.
 
Animal attacks in the wild are RARE.

PEOPLE attacks in the wild, on the other hand, is on the rise.

It makes more sense to plan for what's more likely, as opposed to ignoring what's more likely and planning instead for a remote possibility.

Carry your Kahr, since it's already your carry gun. Carry spare mags, since there won't be an ammo store nearby for resupply.

Semi-autos can better take abuse than revolvers can. In contrast, a semi has but one hole, the muzzle, to worry about. The revolver has the muzzle plus 5-8 cylinder holes.

The Glock 23-C doesn't have a huge fireball if you shoot GOOD ammo. If you shoot the cheap stuff that was on sale, then it's a different story. Still, you already touched on the point about more holes for debris to find it's way into, so the standard 23 gets the nod there.

When I go in the woods, I'm more concerned about the two-legged snakes over anything else. My gun selection reflects that.

Altho, if there really was a serious possiblity of encountering a mad bear, then I'd take no smaller than a 10mm with hot loads, if not a .44 Magnum or hot loaded .45 Colt. Asking anything less to do that job is just naive.

.
 
i carry and love the .40 in a glock 22c. its a great round but would not be my first choice for dedicated bear killing. another observation, i have done quite a bit of shooting at night and have never found to be the flash from the compensator to be an issue. in fact i dont even notice it. if im watching someone else shoot from the side its impressive but its never been an issue from behind. im not sure if its the angle it exits, it could be like looking through a V flash. if your going to get a compensated pistol, just dont tuck shoot it close to the body or under your weakhand. it can make you bleed and cuss alot.
joshua
 
The 40 is not good for bear. I don't know where you'll be or what kind of bears you are concerned with, but I'd say no way.

In Alaska (where I live) a 44 mag is the minimum the locals will carry. I carry a .454 or a 44 mag. I'd consider a 10 mm Glock (G20). It essentially has the same power as a 41 mag with twice as many shots.

You need good penetration with large wound channels for bear. That equates to a bullet with little or controlled expansion. A 40 won't cut it and it would be hard to find hardcast bullets for it. Maybe at Double Tap Ammo. You can easily find hardcast ammo for .44 mag, .454, 10mm, etc.. I wouldn't carry anything else if bears were a real concern.
 
Problem with a rifle, for hiking, day-to-day, that rifle will more than likely be in camp. It is awkward to hump around the hills as a defensive weapon. So, if you are not hunting, you will not take it.

I have carried a .40 as a backup weapon to my rifle and my bow when hunting, and had an issue with a black bear (offensive, not defensive) that convinced me it was not up to my standards. I didn't want to go heavier in weight, but I wanted a .41Mag minimum (didn't carry my super blackhawk in .44Mag due to weight). I ended up with a Taurus Ultra Ti in .44Mag. Weighs less than my .40, and is plenty for both offensive and defensive bear.

I spend a lot of time in the woods were both black bears and grizzly have been seen, and have not felt under gunned with a .44Mag on my hip.

--Carl
 
pricecw said:
Problem with a rifle, for hiking, day-to-day, that rifle will more than likely be in camp. It is awkward to hump around the hills as a defensive weapon. So, if you are not hunting, you will not take it.

I have carried a .40 as a backup weapon to my rifle and my bow when hunting, and had an issue with a black bear (offensive, not defensive) that convinced me it was not up to my standards. I didn't want to go heavier in weight, but I wanted a .41Mag minimum (didn't carry my super blackhawk in .44Mag due to weight). I ended up with a Taurus Ultra Ti in .44Mag. Weighs less than my .40, and is plenty for both offensive and defensive bear.

I spend a lot of time in the woods were both black bears and grizzly have been seen, and have not felt under gunned with a .44Mag on my hip.

--Carl
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good advice.......
 
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