420HC does hold an edge

Just to set the record straight, I think Buck makes GREAT knives. I just wish they would use better steel.
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Well, I mean on all of their knives. But, I suppose they'd lose a lot of customers if they did that, as the prices would invariably go up. And the general public would seem to think that a quality tool just isn't worth more than $20 to $40. I know I used to...
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The most affectionate creature in the world is a wet dog. - Ambrose Bierce
Most dog owners are at length able to teach themselves to obey their dog. - Robert Morley


iktomi
 
Just an unsubstantiated data point...

I have several CRKT knives in AUS-6, and several bucks in 420HC. Granted, both are low end steels, but the bucks seem to hold up MUCH better than the CRKT's. Better Steel? Better Heat Treatment? better grind? I have no clue (just ask any of my co-workers), but that is the impression.

Yeah, I like high end steels. I also like getting an incredibly well made knife at a reasonable price, and I like using my gatco sharpeners anyway
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Peace,

Al Folsom

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Al Folsom alan@folsoms.net
Before you criticize a man, walk a mile in his shoes.
Then if he gets mad, he'll be a mile away, and barefoot!
* * * *
Buck Collector's Club #1334 (oh man, this is gonna cost me...)
Micah 6:8
 
I have often lamented the loss of very good performance in present day "stock" Bucks but form a profit point of view I understand their position. When the Master series was introduced several years ago the prices of the knives was so high that I could get an excellent quality, custom made knife from any of half dozen local cutlers for the same price or even lower. A company often has to compromise in order to stay competitive.
 
I to think think Buck makes excellent knives as far as fit,finish, customer service, very good designs etc. But why do they put such cheap steel in the blades? I had a Buck fillet knife that had an excellent kraton handle that fit the hand,sturdy leather sheath,the blade had good flex and was a dream to use. I could get a breath taking edge on it etc. But why did I get rid of it? It would do a perfect job on the first fish but halfway into the second one it would die on me and I would have to stop and resharpen it. When you have a mess of fish to clean this is a pain. Buck has everything I look for in a useing knife but their 425m and now 420HC just doesn't cut it (pun intended) I would be happy if they would even just go back to 440C. I have several Bucks but compared to other knives their blades just don't keep their edge. Come on Buck no more Edge 2000, Buckcote, expensive customs, etc I would just be happy with aus8. Weldonk
 
I to think think Buck makes excellent knives as far as fit,finish, customer service, very good designs etc. But why do they put such cheap steel in the blades? I had a Buck fillet knife that had an excellent kraton handle that fit the hand,sturdy leather sheath,the blade had good flex and was a dream to use. I could get a breath taking edge on it etc. But why did I get rid of it? It would do a perfect job on the first fish but halfway into the second one it would die on me and I would have to stop and resharpen it. When you have a mess of fish to clean this is a pain. Buck has everything I look for in a useing knife but their 425m and now 420HC just doesn't cut it (pun intended) I would be happy if they would even just go back to 440C. I have several Bucks but compared to other knives their blades just don't keep their edge. Come on Buck no more Edge 2000, Buckcote, expensive customs, etc I would just be happy with aus8. Weldonk
 
Say what you will about Buckcote and expensive customs, but E2K is GREAT and E2K on BG42 is state-of-the-art for a production knife. Granted there isn't a BG42 filet knife and likely won't be, but a 110 from Buck's custom shop can be had in BG42 for a price that let's you feel comfortable using it (just don't pick the mother of pearl option) and there isn't a better production folding hunter made. I have been following the (occasionally angry) threads on 420 vs. fill-in-the-blank steel with some real head scratching. Buck does what businesses do - offer customers in all niches as many choices as they can reasonably afford to. Like the steel or don't, but in general I think it's unfair to demand more-for-less, to insist that all product lines be overbuilt to the point that the company teeters and struggles to stay in the market at all. In my opinion Buck has done a much better job than Case in staying in touch with what users (as opposed to collectors) really want and need. Case offers their high-carbon non-stainless steel in so few models that it really looks more like an afterthought than a real committment to the market niche of "daily heavy user" (*grins* sounds terrible, don't it?) They come up with things like bubble gum pink mini-copperlocks and $5000 sets of knives with snap like a Q-tip breaking, but don't offer their '65 pattern folding hunter in high-carbon steel, don't have a custom shop, and restrict their ATS34 offerings to $350 collaborations with Tony Bose. Now, all that being said I have to agree that more knives in aus8 would be very, very welcome in my deer camp and I'd like to see the option be a regular catalog offering, not something you have to do thru the on-line custom shop. I'd like a Vanguard in a better steel as a catalog option, for example. Don't need the special box and inset medallion (Master Series) and BG42 to up the price - just aus8 as a to fifteen twenty dollar upgrade. Same for the filet knife. My point, though, is it's probably unreasonable to expect them to risk their over-the-counter Wal Mart business by increasing the price on every knife with an across-the-board steel upgrade that for many casual users wouldn't be noticed. "We" as serious users are a rather rarified group and maybe a fairly small niche ourselves.

Warmly,
the pup
 
It would be nice if at this point, someone in Buck management would seize the opportunity and publish some hard numbers (I gotta believe they have them) comparing 420HC with some other popular higher end steels in regard to edge holding. So far we have only anecdotal evidence and unsupported opinions.

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Jim Rasmussen
Idyllwild CA
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by JimR:
It would be nice if at this point, someone in Buck management would seize the opportunity and publish some hard numbers (I gotta believe they have them) comparing 420HC with some other popular higher end steels in regard to edge holding. So far we have only anecdotal evidence and unsupported opinions.
</font>

Fat chance of that.
 
My my my!! Looks like I really started a fire here. All I did was test out the edge on a blade. Well, I'm still testing it out and it's still doing fine. For the price I paid I think it holds an edge very well. I'm also finding some these replies a little hard to believe. In my opinion, if you can't cut more than a couple sticks or clean more than one fish without resharpening, you don't need better steel. You need to learn how to sharpen. Later
 
quote:
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Originally posted by JimR:
It would be nice if at this point, someone in Buck management would seize the opportunity and publish some hard numbers (I gotta believe they have them) comparing 420HC with some other popular higher end steels in regard to edge holding. So far we have only anecdotal evidence and unsupported opinions.

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>Fat chance of that.

Look what i found while looking for something else! Sorry guys, i had no idea this question was posed.
"rdangerer" I am not sure where the cynicism of your comment came from either, has Buck wronged you in the past?
Back to the question, what kind of numbers are you looking for? I know we did edge retention testing with a C.A.T.R.A. machine. We compared 420hc to our then current 425mod and they were basically identical in performance. 420hc is not a higher end steel such as ATS-34 or BG-42. Those steels definitely outperformed the 420hc. One note of interested to me was that the BG-42 actually did better than the ATS-34. Not by much though.
Anything else i can help you with?




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Joe Houser
Director of Consumer relations
Buck Collectors club Administrator and member #123
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Joe Houser:
Anything else i can help you with?</font>

BG42 in all your knives?
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The most affectionate creature in the world is a wet dog. - Ambrose Bierce
Most dog owners are at length able to teach themselves to obey their dog. - Robert Morley


iktomi
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Joe Houser:
quote:</font>

Thanks for the response Joe, I'm sure that it's no surprise to anyone to find that ATS 34 and BG 42 outperform 420HC but what I personally would find of interest is some kind of quantification of the difference between them. Such as the numbers generated by the CATRA testing whatever that may be, or any other hard data Buck has on it.

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Jim Rasmussen
Idyllwild CA
 
Those numbers are available and I have forwarded this link to our engineering staff for review. Either Joe or I will post an answer.

What we found when we did our testing was that edge angle and the flatness (vs. round) of the edge grind had more to do with edge retention then material hardness.

With that said, nothing beat BG-42 with the edge 2000 angle and flatness.

BTW, that flatness is what makes this edge so easy to resharpen on a stone cause you do not have to grind down the hump.

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CJ Buck
Buck Knives, Inc.
AKTI Member #PR00003


 
I love BG-42 steel combined with a Buck knife. I do own a few. I also don't use them for much other than opening packages because they are part of my collection. (And they cost a few bucks more than my users.)
But the knives I use everyday are Buck knives and they have one thing in common...420HC steel. Sure, I sharpen once, sometimes twice a week. And they just keep on working for me.


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Dave Fortman

~Buck Collectors Club~
~Lifetime Member #736~
 
Just a weekly post to keep the thread current!! It seems to be on the back burner

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Jim Rasmussen
Idyllwild CA
 
Here's my 2 cents worth on the 420HC thing. As for blade steel, I think it is at the lowest end of the scale as far as useable bladesteel. With somewhere around .45% C in it(rdangerer, this is an average not exact, but feel free to post the exact numbers), it is at the very lowest end of Carbon content. It is definitelly better than 425m which is so soft that it was always tough to sharpen until I figured out that the bur on the edge would just flop over from side to side keeping the knife from becomming scary sharp. I never have this problem with 420HC.

Most knife steels have .60% or more to maintain a good edge. 440A is supposed to have around .70% or which is more useable and WILL maintain a better edge. I have many knives in both 420HC(nighthawks and Intrepid) and 440A(several SOGS). My SOG's hold a much better edge than my Bucks, by a wide margin. Maybe the heat treat has something to do with this. The edge profile is the same on both since I use the same sharpening method.

Having said all that I still think 420HC is good for knives like the intrepid, were you may be diving and prying rocks under water with it. I have not noticed any better corrosion resistance in 420HC than 440A, but they are both so corrosion resistant that I don't really think it matters.

I enjoy my Bucks, I hope you do also.
 
OK...thought I would see a post from our engineers already. I am resending with a friendly reminder in person...

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CJ Buck
Buck Knives, Inc.
AKTI Member #PR00003


 
I have a Buck Special in 420HC. It doesn't hold a very good edge, but I have noticed it takes a really great edge, and with ease. I wish Buck would use a better steel, but I also understand that most of its customer base won't pay much more for a better steel. Maybe Buck should offer each blade it makes in either BG42 or 420HC. More expense, but they would perform tons better.

BTW, just as a point of interest, 420HC is used for folder handles. That doesn't say a great deal for its quality as a blade steel.

But, some people are satisfied. I just wish Buck would offer all its knives in BG42 as well, which would make practically everybody happy.
 
Andrew, very good reply. I too would like to be able to purchase Buck knives in a variety of premium steels. I know most forumites will say just order from Petes, but I also know that you can't get the best price from there. The standard 110 there is over $60.00, while I paid less than $35.00 for mine at a sporting goods store.
 
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