DOPE SLAP FOR PNNAH DAVE!
Sorry, I just noted that this is a Lazarus thread risen from the grave.
Sorry for adding to it.......
My first question...is if its worth the additional cost on a boning knife? The only difference between Select and Avid Boning knife is the steel.
The bigger question is what makes 12C27M better than Buck's 420HC?? Because, I can't find anything at all that is convincing me it it better. Any comments.
I guess I'm mainly interested in the difference in edge retention between these two if that helps with your thoughts on the subject.
Flatlander,
Among the low-carbide steels like 1095 and 420HC, 12C27 is my favorite. As a benchmark, I've racked up a lot of time with old Schrade-Walden and Schrade USA 1095, which was run at about 59Rc and 12C27 is the closest to providing that same sort of feel, both on the stone and in use. The Opinel 12C27 (rc58) is the flavor I'm most used to and it sharpens easily, feels less "smushy" than Buck's 420HC to me (Case's softer 420HC is even more so) and hones up incredibly "crisply" to a very, very, very fine edge.
As an engineer, I cringe when discussions about "edge retention" come up because my experiences is that different uses cause edges to degrade differently and different steels withstand these various failure modalities in differently. If by "edge retention" you mean the ability to withstand edge rounding through abrasive wear (i.e. rope cutting, cardboard) then I would put Schrades hard 1095, Opinel's 12C27 and Schrade USA's Schrade+ 440A (58Rc reported) are the best I've used among fine, low carbide steels with Buck's 420HC only a hair's breadth less. Call it by a nose in my very unscientific recollection of use. Cases's 420HC (rc56) is a very big jump down but it's not clear to me if that is due to abrasion or it's propensity to roll at that hardness. I would expect that CARTA and rope-based cutting tests would put 12C27 and 420HC near a dead heat if both hardened and profiled the same and both would be very, very, very far behind Buck's 440C.
In my super simplistic steel world view, there are 2 basic kinds of steels: those with carbides and those without. As Frank (knarfang) has said with respect to 440C, "Welcome to the darkside. We have carbides."
I prefer my old 440C Bucks for hunting, cutting down cardboard and when I use it for light EDC use, the edge stay sharp longer. That's the carbide effect.
I don't trust my 440C blades when it comes to working with wood or, frankly, the abusive stuff I do with my work knives in my shop (cutting down metal cans and flashing) and in the woods (yes, I baton wood with my fixed blades). IME, I would much rather have an edge roll or dent than chip, as I can fix that a lot faster in the field with a handheld stone.
For this sort of abuse, I still find 1095 to be the best I've used. I've put noticeable dents in 12C27 batoning through knots and I've not been able to dent Bucks 420HC cutting down boxes (hitting staples) or when cutting up metal cans. Still, the Opinel didn't chip and I was able to restore it. But in terms of toughness, I would give the edge to Bucks 420HC. (Case's 420HC is "tougher" yet, rolling and denting when you look at it sternly.)
The best way I can describe my experience with 12C27 is to say it feels exactly like good, hard 1095 without the issues of patina or food taste transfer.
If you want to experiment with 12C27 for cheap (while we wait for more expensive Buck offerings), the Opinel #9 and Mora Companion are both available for $15. Both companies have good experience with it and both treat it up in the 58Rc range, iirc. [Put Vaseline in the joint of the Opinel to to make the Mora shine when working with wood, I recommend convexing both the grind and edge.]
Please note: - My experience is with 12C27, not 12C27Mod and while they are close, they are different. My understanding is that 12C27M is more corrosion resistant and made for commercial kitchen knives that need to be put in dishwashers. Regular 12C27 can be pushed a bit higher in terms of heat treat, according to Sandvik.
Hope something here helps.
