440A vs 420HC

Joined
Aug 31, 2000
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58
actually, I should have said Boker stainless vs Case stainless. but how are they? what about Remington's 440A? also, any experience with boker's delrin handled barlow, 493? specific questions, sorry. I'll add another: are bone handles too delicate for daily use? thanks
 
I can't speak for either bone handles or the other steel but I do own a couple of fillet knives in 440A. That steel contains 17 or 18 % Chromium, as I recall, which makes it very corrosion resistent. However, with only about .7% Carbon, it is relatively soft. That isn't all bad. It doesn't chip and it's easy to sharpen. One filet knife in fact is a Remington, and it's acually a pretty useful one. For harder cutting, things other than fish, I prefer higher carbon content steel. That is the extent of my very limited experience. Jack
 
Go here to peruse Wayne Goddard's edge holding tests: http://www.ameritech.net/users/knives/edge.htm

You will notice that 440C is a middling performer, and 440A and 420HC are not even tested. 440C should be expected to outperform 440A, due to 440C's higher carbon content (1.1 vs. 440A's 0.75); 420HC is barely martensitic with a very mundane carbon content of 0.5 (roughly; depends on the manufacturer).

These two steels are utilized due to their very low cost and easy machinability, not due to their superior performance. They are outshined even by traditional ingot steels, such as ATS-34 and BG-42.

No experience with Boeker's (the 0 umlaut is rendered as 'oe' in English) bowie or bone handles.

Hope this helps, Walt

 
Thank you both! now, what about the bone scales? are they durable? do they stand up to daily pocket carry and use? thanks
 
Originally posted by Walt Welch:
420HC is barely martensitic with a very mundane carbon content of 0.5 (roughly; depends on the manufacturer).

No, no, no. 420HC contains Vanadium which is yet another ingredient which also increases hardness and edge-retention. Also, HEAT TREATMENT can not be overemphasized in analysis. To be sure, I am not suggesting that 420Hc is on par with any of the premium stainless steels. Only that it is widely misunderstood. I suggest you go to the Camillus forum and look in the ArcLite posts for factual information about 420HC. Granted, this will only provide you with info about Camillus' formulary 420HC, but more, accurate, information is always helpful. Go there and have a look.

 
Samwereb; I thank you for your information. However, it has left me somewhat puzzled. I went to the reference you suggested, and found this post by Phil Gibbs:
*********************
420HC:
C 0.42
Mn 0.42
P 0.019
S 0.002
Si 0.49
Cr 12.69

Hardenability: to Rc58
********************

It seems Phil did not mention vanadium as an alloying element of Camillus' 420HC; perhaps you could help me resolve my confusion, Sam.

You could very well be right, but I would appreciate a reference. Walt
 
How about the bone handles? how well do they stand up? I'm on the verge of some sort of traditional folder, and bone looks beautiful...
 
Mr. Welch - Please disregard the tone of my reply. It reads a lot more harshly than I intended. I have spoken to engineers at Camillus, on other business, about their 420HC. It does indeed contain Vanadium (if memory serves it is .2%), and I will get the correct amounts to you as soon as I track it down.
 
Samwereb; I was not offended by the tone of your reply; I am an old ER doc, and it takes a LOT more than what you did (nothing, in my opinion) to offend me!

If the 420HC utilized by Camillus has 0.2% vanadium, then this will indeed help the hardness. Vanadium is effective in improving hardness and edge holding down to about 40ppm. However, the rather mediocre carbon content will prevent very much carbide formation, and I doubt this addition will lift this alloy from its' rather mediocre position.

Thank you for your kind reply. Walt
 
The 420HC is intended to be finer-grained and to take a finer edge than 440A. Less chrome is a good thing for easy sharpening. I'm not sure you really need that much chrome for corrosion resistance when your carbon content is down in the .5% range.
I get sharper edges on 420HC from Buck than I get with 440A from others. Wear seems reasonable.
 
In response to the other question posed, most bone handles stand up to regular use just fine. I occasionally carry a Case chestnut bone stockman in the same pocket with keys & change, and it is holding up just fine. Bone has been used as a handle material for many years and should last a long time. It can chip or break if dropped hard on a hard surface, though.



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Die Entropie der Welt strebt einem Maximum zu - R.J.E. Clausius
 
Halycon, I have a chestnut bone Case as well, and it is holding up great. I've only been carrying it a few weeks, but the bone is holding up in my pocket (with other assorted metal items) better than the nickel-silver bolsters.

As for 420HC, I'm not sure if it is the same thing, but the Spyderco Steel Chart lists 420MOD as having 0.18% Vanadium, and an optimum (?) hardness of 54-56 Rc. Not very hard, IMO. I have a stag Case with their Tru-Sharp steel (rumored to be 420HC), and it certainly seems that is it quite a bit softer than the Chrome-Vanadium steel in my chestnut bone version.

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iktomi
 
Walt Welch:

[420HC]

However, the rather mediocre carbon content will prevent very much carbide formation, and I doubt this addition will lift this alloy from its' rather mediocre position.

No its not going to have the strength or wear resistance of the ATS-34 class steels, but it is for example the steel that Phil Wilson would suggest for a kitchen knife over ATS-34 because of the shock resistance, ductility and corrosion resistance.

These properties have advantages as well for other knives. CPM-10V is stronger and more wear resistant than INFI (based on what I have seen), but it is also far more brittle and I would chose the BM to do a lot of cutting in (not chopping that goes without saying) over the 10V blade I have as it would get damaged (chipped out).

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 12-05-2000).]
 
Cliff
Thanks for the information. Does Phil have a web site.

I dont think comparing 10v or other super steels to 420hc is apples to apples.

Yes 420hc is great kitchen knives. It has good stain resistance, hold a fair edge, AND it is VERY ductile.



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Web Site At www.darrelralph.com
Happy Holidays!
 
Cliff, Darrel; thank you both very much for your as usual, informative, fact filled and lucid posts. However, I must advise you that my opinion of 420HC remains as follows:

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The meercats stand behind me on this.
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Thanking you for your kind attention, I remain,

yr. obt. svt. Walt Welch
 
420 HC has a certain set of material properties, these are going to give a knife made out of it certain abilities (and cost), these specifics will be suited to certain applications and thus be highly regarded by some people and not others depending on what they do.

I use blades over a very wide range of tasks and have yet to see a blade shape or steel that I wouldn't like to have over all the other blades I have seen for certain applications. For example I would prefer an Arclite in 420HC over the 10V blade I have for work I have to do in the graveyard.

Most of the work in that areas is very hard on a knife; scraping paint, loosening up deep weeds, digging out loose concrete, cutting away rotted wood, chopping up new stakes for flowers (obviously with some assistance) etc., but an edge is still necessary for cutting twine, plastic wrapping etc. . The 10V blade I have would not respond well to that kind of work because of the profile (1/8" distal taper, fine point) and choice of temper (62.5 RC).

It is nothing however that would bother the Arclite and I would think nothing of leaving it up on the graveyard with the other few tools and water bottles for example. This is due to the high corrosion resistance plus the low cost. I would obviously not do this with a $300+ custom knife.

I don't think there is anything wrong with saying that a particular steel doesn't suit you well or have the performance you need but just be specific as if you generalize in a vague way can be very misleading especially to people who are just starting out. This goes both ways for example, the opposite, promotion of the positive without any comment on the negative is what causes hype.

The best way to to describe both the positive and negatives of the steel (or blade) and let the reader maker up their mind. Casting your own preference into it will only benefit them if they have the same needs as you.

Walt, I know you are retired but would you mind a medical related question. I need to know which journals to read to keep up to date on treatments for a few things. If you are open I'll email you the specifics.


-Cliff
 
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