440c vs 420hc vs 1095

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i would concur, my case cv seems to get sharper than my buck (a 309) and stays sharp slightly longer
my GEC 1095 seems to get sharper and hold the edge longer then either my case or my buck.

but i am not sure if its something i am doing. I can get a nice toothy edge on my buck straight off the stones
but when i strop it it seems to dull. which makes me think the burr is still attached, but i strop over over and over
either something is wrong with my technique...or its one STUBBORN burr

but on the bright side, the 309 has quite a pointy tip...so useful for so many things :)

but i have been taking my 309 to work with me this week..with my gec one day and then the last 2 days just the 309
its certainly doing the job, just have to think about things a little before i cut.
I am beginning to see how a little pen knife is knife enough for most jobs even if a bigger knife is expected
 
I see 420 series steel more in traditional knives than in the liner lock clip knives or "Modern" knives unless they are junk coming from Asia. Ive never had good luck with 420 steel. Its generally not tolerated well in modern knives.
 
hopefully not too much threadomancy

but i came across this quote by Knarfeng from way back in 2008
i think this is the rest of the answer to my original question, wonder if he remembers this ;)

knarfeng said:
The Stockman is my favorite traditional design.

When I compared Case to Buck, I found the Case had better fit and finish, but the Buck had much better edge retention. (Buck 420HC was also better than Case CV.) I've not tried 420 blades from other houses yet, but, if edge retention is important to you in a 420 blade, I'd go with a Buck 301 as no one that I know of does 420HC better.

If you're willing to spend a spell sharpening, you might also look at a Queen stockman with D2 blades. http://www.soonerstateknives.com/queenbirdseyemaple.htm
Don't have one yet, but it's on my get list.
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i bolded the relevant portion
 
I prefer 1095 and 440C, but really, 420HC when given the Paul Bos heat treat, is fine. Buck's 420HC is far and away better than the SS 420 that Case uses. I am not a fan of Case's SS, but it isn't bad. Just not as good as their CV, not as good as Buck's 420HC etc. I've been using a Gossman UNK with 440C off and on. My father used it to butcher an entire deer. He did everything with it except bust up bones and quarter steaks. When he was done, the blade didn't have any spots, and I didn't even need to touch up the edge, although I did on a strop. All I did was give it a once over cleaning, he washed it with soap and water. I found one piece of bloody gunk on it, and washed the whole knife over again. The basic design of the blade is somewhat traditional, even the natural micarta scales are a little bit old fashioned with their patina. The only other 440C blade I have is a GEC furtaker trapper, and I haven't really used it that much.

As far as 1095 goes, coming from the "only the super high speed low drag steels are good" crowd, I snubbed 1095, CV, even O1. 1095 and O1 are actually some of my favorite steels, including A2. I include them because they are your basic tool steels, without going the D2 route of sharpening etc. What I have been using the most in the last few months have been a Tidioute 73 single blade trapper (1095), a Gossman micro Kephart (A2), and either a Case peanut (CV) or a Camillus made Remington peanut (1095).

All only need a few swipes on my strop or a jean pants leg, and I am ready to rock and roll. I haven't even had to have the micro Kephart sharpened yet, and I've had it for more than 3 years, I think. I still like the super steels, but I feel that basic tool steels, basic carbon steels and basic stainless steels are absolutely fine to work with.
 
I'd take 440c over 420hc and 1095 over 440c. I like 1095 the most because I enjoy a nice patina. Honestly I don't notice huge edge retention differences but I don't cut too consistently to notice major differences. I use 1095 the most but find all of the mentioned steels good enough for everyday tasks. I enjoy sharpening my blades and just do it when needed. All are pretty easy to sharpen in my experience so far.
 
I feel the same way about slipjoints. I love 1095 because I can get it super sharp and I really like the patina it takes.

Thalestin said:
I'd take 440c over 420hc and 1095 over 440c. I like 1095 the most because I enjoy a nice patina. Honestly I don't notice huge edge retention differences but I don't cut too consistently to notice major differences. I use 1095 the most but find all of the mentioned steels good enough for everyday tasks. I enjoy sharpening my blades and just do it when needed. All are pretty easy to sharpen in my experience so far.
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The S&M 420HC seems to be harder than the Case SS
It holds well and sharpens to shaving sharp (inside of my wrist hairs)
And I have little problem with burrs
It is harder than Boker SS, which is harder than Case SS
All this is non scientific, just experiance in sharpening on an E Fine DMT and then useage

I cannot compare the edge retention to Buck as the blade profile is so different, being constantly much thinner than the Buck profile
 
silenthunterstudios said:
I prefer 1095 and 440C, but really, 420HC when given the Paul Bos heat treat, is fine. Buck's 420HC is far and away better than the SS 420 that Case uses. I am not a fan of Case's SS, but it isn't bad. Just not as good as their CV, not as good as Buck's 420HC etc. I've been using a Gossman UNK with 440C off and on. My father used it to butcher an entire deer. He did everything with it except bust up bones and quarter steaks. When he was done, the blade didn't have any spots, and I didn't even need to touch up the edge, although I did on a strop. All I did was give it a once over cleaning, he washed it with soap and water. I found one piece of bloody gunk on it, and washed the whole knife over again. The basic design of the blade is somewhat traditional, even the natural micarta scales are a little bit old fashioned with their patina. The only other 440C blade I have is a GEC furtaker trapper, and I haven't really used it that much.

As far as 1095 goes, coming from the "only the super high speed low drag steels are good" crowd, I snubbed 1095, CV, even O1. 1095 and O1 are actually some of my favorite steels, including A2. I include them because they are your basic tool steels, without going the D2 route of sharpening etc. What I have been using the most in the last few months have been a Tidioute 73 single blade trapper (1095), a Gossman micro Kephart (A2), and either a Case peanut (CV) or a Camillus made Remington peanut (1095).

All only need a few swipes on my strop or a jean pants leg, and I am ready to rock and roll. I haven't even had to have the micro Kephart sharpened yet, and I've had it for more than 3 years, I think. I still like the super steels, but I feel that basic tool steels, basic carbon steels and basic stainless steels are absolutely fine to work with.
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I agree Paul Bos could bring the best out of 420 but I still dont understand why Buck insists on 420 when something better wouldnt necessarily be that much more expensive.

Ive also seen mild steel made shaving sharp...for a little while at least.
 
My experience is right along the lines of what has been mentioned here already. I am a dyed in the wool 1095 fan but will admit that 440c is right there alongside it as my favorite steel. Both are wonderful steels but like most here I have found that for pure edge holding 440c wins and does so in a way that doesn't leave any doubt.

The thing I love about 440c is that in spite of having a high edge holding capacity it also can be given a pretty damned high quality edge. For me, and me alone, it is the perfect compromise between edge retention and quality versus ease of sharpening.

Will
 
I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on using the higher grade steels on their traditional folders, both custom and factory. 154CM and ATS34 look to remain the realm of the Bose collaborations. ATS34 has also been the norm for many years, for traditional custom folders, and is used by Schatt and Morgan. BG42 has been used to an extent on Bucks from the custom shop, just recently replaced by S30V.

I have seen more of the higher quality steels used in customs, including CPM154, CPM3V, CPMS35VN and CPMD2, at least in magazines and online. Of course, damascus is used a lot also.

Primarily, for the custom realm, I've seen mainly ATS34 out there.

I'd like to hear what all of the custom users have to say about their higher grade steel knives.
 
I actually prefer VG-10 to either 440C or ATS-34, but it hardly seems to be used by American cutlers. Is there a reason for this?

Maybe because of the small amount of vanadium in VG-10, but it seems to take a finer edge than either of the other SS above.
 
black mamba said:
I actually prefer VG-10 to either 440C or ATS-34, but it hardly seems to be used by American cutlers. Is there a reason for this?

Maybe because of the small amount of vanadium in VG-10, but it seems to take a finer edge than either of the other SS above.
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The more I've messed around with each of them, the more I have to re-calibrate my assumptions. Each is different, but the biggest difference I see in getting really fine edges on them, is in how much time needs to be spent on it. 440C is easier for me, to get a really fine edge on it. In particular, my old '2-dot' Buck 112 in 440C never ceases to amaze me. Thick blade, thick edge, and a convex on the edge (which I put on it, using wet/dry paper), and it still easily tree-tops hair from my forearm. In spite of it's relatively high carbon (~1%) and chromium (~16-18%), the influence of the carbides doesn't seem as strong as with other steels of similar chemistry. As with any steel, I'm sure the quality of heat treat also influences how large and uniform the carbides are, aside from the basic chemistry of the steel.

VG-10 and ATS-34 can get extremely sharp as well, but I spend a lot more time in getting either of them to that point. Burrs/wires are very tenacious on VG-10 at slightly lower RC (below 60, like Spyderco), and sometimes brutally so on ATS-34 at higher hardness (60+). The ATS-34 has a higher molybdenum content, which supposedly adds toughness at higher RC. I suspect that's why it's burrs/wires are so stubborn. VG-10 at higher hardness really shines. Burrs don't seem as much of an issue up around 60 RC, and it takes a great edge.


David
 
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