440C vs. S35VN

Sharp Knives 86

Sharp Knives 86

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Oct 27, 2009
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How does 440c compare to CPM s35vn in terms of toughness, edge holding, wear and rust resistance, ease of sharpening etc? I know 440c often gets a bad rap these days but I also see quite a few well known and respected knife makers who still use it so I figured well heat treated 440c can't be all that bad but how does either steel do on a knife that will see some moderate "hard use" like light/medium chopping and general camp chores etc? I know for hard use blades carbon steel is generally preferred by most, myself included but I figure I might try to branch out a bit. Btw the knife in question is a Martin MCEII hollow handle knife.
 
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Keep in mind that s30v can take a keener edge, as well as hold it longer. The advantage of s35v over 35 is in its toughness, iirc. That being said, I would take 30> 35> 440, but that's personal preference.
 
Thanks for chart Jill.

NJBillK said:
Keep in mind that s30v can take a keener edge, as well as hold it longer. The advantage of s35v over 35 is in its toughness, iirc. That being said, I would take 30> 35> 440, but that's personal preference.
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Yeah I read several places where s30v was said to have better edge retention but I heard its harder to sharpen and for the intended use of the knife I'm considering, the added toughness of the s35vn makes it more appealing to me for tuis particular knife.
 
I often have a hatchet or a designated "chopper" in camp and don't rely on my general use camp knife to chop with, so edge retention and ability to take a finer edge is paramount to me. I also plan on having time around a fire for maintenance if need be.

Though if you are looking for one blade to handle both types of chores I would take m4 > s35v> 440. If indeed m4 is an option. If you are looking for something with even more toughness and can spare the coin, look at S7.
 
Sharp Knives 86 said:
Thanks for chart Jill.



Yeah I read several places where s30v was said to have better edge retention but I heard its harder to sharpen and for the intended use of the knife I'm considering, the added toughness of the s35vn makes it more appealing to me for tuis particular knife.
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I don't think you would be able to notice any added toughness of S35VN over S30V. From a daily user stand point it performs unremarkably similar. So with once a week use or longer use, you really wouldn't know the difference. The difficulty in sharpness is mitigated (and relative) by/to the equipment you use. Trying to sharpen a dull high Vanadium carbide steel with say a high grit stone is going to waste a lot of your time. YMMV.
 
Thanks for chart

it is easy to read someone should put this at the top so everyone can keep up with it !
 
I think if I put a S30V, S35VN, and a 44C blade of the same shape and grind, no one would be able to tell the difference in edge retention, ease of sharpening, and toughness in a real world comparison. I am a knife maker and when I made my personal knife, I chose 440C over every other steel. I worked with Neil Blackwood and we both agreed, 440C is an incredible steel and a heck of a lot more reasonably priced.
 
NJBillK said:
I often have a hatchet or a designated "chopper" in camp and don't rely on my general use camp knife to chop with, so edge retention and ability to take a finer edge is paramount to me. I also plan on having time around a fire for maintenance if need be.

Though if you are looking for one blade to handle both types of chores I would take m4 > s35v> 440. If indeed m4 is an option. If you are looking for something with even more toughness and can spare the coin, look at S7.
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Oh dont get me wrong, I believe in the right tool for the right job and I do own a few more dedicated choppers and a Busse TGLB as my "do it all" knife so the MCE is not needed but my inner couch potato commando has been wanting a Rambo style blade that can actually be used as a "survival knife" (I know I dont care for the term either lol) and since the maker offers several different steels to choose from including the 2 in question, I was just curious about their performences.

tidefan said:
I think if I put a S30V, S35VN, and a 44C blade of the same shape and grind, no one would be able to tell the difference in edge retention, ease of sharpening, and toughness in a real world comparison. I am a knife maker and when I made my personal knife, I chose 440C over every other steel. I worked with Neil Blackwood and we both agreed, 440C is an incredible steel and a heck of a lot more reasonably priced.
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True. Normally I dont get too caught up in steel type but I dont have much experience with stainless steels and since the knife itself will cost more than what I used to paying and because I have a few choices on which steel I want, I figured I'd ask for some opinions from those that have experience with both.
 
The progression was : 440c , 154CM , CPM 154 , S35VN , S30V . All children of 440c. BTW the 154CM vs CPM154 in the chart doesn't seem correct !!! Both have the same chemistry ,one is just a CPM version .

CPM M4 - the major difference is much better wear resistance at the cost of reduced toughness .
 
The progression was : 440c , 154CM , CPM 154 , S35VN , S30V . All children of 440c. BTW the 154CM vs CPM154 in the chart doesn't seem correct !!! Both have the same chemistry ,one is just a CPM version .

CPM M4 - the major difference is much better wear resistance at the cost of reduced toughness .
 
One of the original Buck gentlemen, described 440C as having a "meat edge" due to it's ability to process game and other fibrous material. Now Mete can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the effect is due to the carbides being lost on the edge of the blade through use, leaving a micro-saw edge.

Personally, I have found 440C to be a very competent steel for general use and I have not been disappointed with it.
 
A.P.F. said:
Personally, I have found 440C to be a very competent steel for general use and I have not been disappointed with it.
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Exactly. Me neither! I thought "440C has a bad rep? Since when? Did I miss the memo?"
 
AntDog said:
Exactly. Me neither! I thought "440C has a bad rep? Since when? Did I miss the memo?"
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Maybe its just posts I've read but I've read alot of negative comments about 440c but I think it has alot to do with the fact that there are newer and "better" stainless steels out there today but in my experience some of the old tried and true steels (standard 10 series carbon steel etc) work just as well so I didn't want to discredit 440c for somthing newer and most likely more expensive if I felt 440c could work just as well for my wants.
 
According to Crucible, M4 is tougher than the stainless steels like S30V or 154 CM, with better edge retention than S30V. It is tougher than S35V, but S35V is tougher than S30V. I have a couple of knoves in S35V, and they do well in the kitchen.
CPM M4 has excellent edge retention.
 
Since 440c itself and proper documentation as to how to target ht/temper for a specific attitude is so readily available while keeping the price respectable, I would honestly look to have something custom made to a prefered shape/style.
If I were to have something made for those specific tasks in mind, it would probably be based off of a bk4/7/9. With the final decision relying upon which roles it would likely end up in.

440c is a fine steel, I just tend to find it, well, old hat-ish...
 
Sharp Knives 86 said:
How does 440c compare to CPM s35vn in terms of toughness, edge holding, wear and rust resistance, ease of sharpening etc? I know 440c often gets a bad rap these days but I also see quite a few well known and respected knife makers who still use it so I figured well heat treated 440c can't be all that bad but how does either steel do on a knife that will see some moderate "hard use" like light/medium chopping and general camp chores etc? I know for hard use blades carbon steel is generally preferred by most, myself included but I figure I might try to branch out a bit. Btw the knife in question is a Martin MCEII hollow handle knife.
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I refer to it as the china syndrome. That's were 440 series and 440C get their bad rap these days.

Many of the cheap knives from there are marked 440 or 440C and who really knows what alloy some of them are? Or how well they are HTed.

I use CPM-154, CPM-S35VN, CPM-S30V and good old domestically made 440C for my line of custom knives.

As mentioned there is more edge retention with S35VN and at the same time I think most users would be hard pressed to tell the different.

440C is a tad easier to sharpen so in the case of your H/H field knife, I think 440C would work fine for you and I also do agree with the comment about 440C having larger carbides which will give you a slightly toothy edge.
The CPM of S35V meaning that is a powdered steel.

And YES! Good Ole 440C is old hatish and I happen to like my old hat!;)
 
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