440C vs. S35VN

Maybe its just posts I've read but I've read alot of negative comments about 440c but I think it has alot to do with the fact that there are newer and "better" stainless steels out there today but in my experience some of the old tried and true steels (standard 10 series carbon steel etc) work just as well so I didn't want to discredit 440c for somthing newer and most likely more expensive if I felt 440c could work just as well for my wants.

You sure it's not 440A you're thinking of? 440A is pretty terrible. I never thought 440C had a bad rap at all. Heck, I remember when 440C was the latest and greatest supersteel! It's kinda common now, but it's still good stuff. Nothing wrong with it.
 
^+1^^right on AntDog My tw0 dot .112. and .110. have been in the construction trades with me for 40 years and I wouldn't trade them for any super steels...
 
You sure it's not 440A you're thinking of? 440A is pretty terrible. I never thought 440C had a bad rap at all. Heck, I remember when 440C was the latest and greatest supersteel!

Disagree with both. real 440A isn't terrible at all. It's different from 440C, but it's designed to be. It's possible to like one better, or for one to fit ones needs more but saying one is better is like saying vanilla is better than chocolate. Only to the person who likes chocolate better. They are different steels designed for different things. Neither is better. Personally I like 440A better than 440C.

Also, there never has been a time that 440C was the "latest and greatest supersteel". the term was first used around the time 154cm came into common use. then ATS 34. Than CPM 440V/S60V, etc. on up the line. 440C was a premium steel in Buck and Gerbers line but they had upgrades that were like our "sprints" using higher performing steels. Even so they were never called "super steels". Gerber"V" ( vascowear, like our modern Cruwear), M2HSS, even L6 were the upgrades before the term "Super steel" was even in use.

So, when 440C was a premium steel it was before the term even existed. It's limits were recognized even then and non stainless steels were the equivalent of "supersteel" upgrades.

440C will always have a following of people who grew up on it but overall it's a pretty poor stainless compared to modern powder steel stainless steels. In it's day it was one of the better stainless steels but surely never considered "super" at anything, to be honest.
 
You sure it's not 440A you're thinking of? 440A is pretty terrible. I never thought 440C had a bad rap at all. Heck, I remember when 440C was the latest and greatest supersteel! It's kinda common now, but it's still good stuff. Nothing wrong with it.

I'm sure it was 440c being discussed in the threads I was talking about but I suppose I could be wrong (definitely wouldnt be the first time :p) I personally have nothing against 440c as I've never really used it and am actually considering it over the s35vn and seeing that many well respected knife makers still use it and swear by I figured it couldnt be that bad.
 
steel5.png

These charts are a little silly... as it all depends on heat treat. Steel X's heat treat could be optimized for toughness while Steel Y (or Steel X in another knife) could optimized for edge retention. I don't know how this chart could possibly control for this factor...

I'm not saying that S35vn isnt a better steel than 420J2, but the precision at which this chart purports to describe these steels' characteristics is a bit misleading.
 
Disagree with both. real 440A isn't terrible at all. It's different from 440C, but it's designed to be. It's possible to like one better, or for one to fit ones needs more but saying one is better is like saying vanilla is better than chocolate. Only to the person who likes chocolate better. They are different steels designed for different things. Neither is better. Personally I like 440A better than 440C.

Also, there never has been a time that 440C was the "latest and greatest supersteel". the term was first used around the time 154cm came into common use. then ATS 34. Than CPM 440V/S60V, etc. on up the line. 440C was a premium steel in Buck and Gerbers line but they had upgrades that were like our "sprints" using higher performing steels. Even so they were never called "super steels". Gerber"V" ( vascowear, like our modern Cruwear), M2HSS, even L6 were the upgrades before the term "Super steel" was even in use.

So, when 440C was a premium steel it was before the term even existed. It's limits were recognized even then and non stainless steels were the equivalent of "supersteel" upgrades.

440C will always have a following of people who grew up on it but overall it's a pretty poor stainless compared to modern powder steel stainless steels. In it's day it was one of the better stainless steels but surely never considered "super" at anything, to be honest.

Just out of curiosity, when 440C was in its heyday what other stainless steel had better performance and was available in non-custom knives? Perhaps I missed it because I was just a kid. It seems 440C would have been a good mix of edge-holding and corrosion resistance back then.
 
Good old 440c like buck knives used to use we'll hold a finer edge a lil bit longer and is maybe a bit tougher then S30V

440c is pretty much 154CM pending on the company benchman 440C to 154CM not much deference buck knives 440c to 154CM big deference.

ZTD
 
Just out of curiosity, when 440C was in its heyday what other stainless steel had better performance and was available in non-custom knives? Perhaps I missed it because I was just a kid. It seems 440C would have been a good mix of edge-holding and corrosion resistance back then.

There weren't a lot of high end knives geared towards performance that used stainless. As you stated there wasn't a lot of recognized premium stainless steels until the whole concept of 154cm, then ATS 34, than Spyderco introduced Gin 1, the aus series etc. Around the time the stainless steels really began giving a good selection the concept of "super steels" began with 154cm/ats34, then 440V/S60. S90V was released before S60V but it didn't make it's way into production knives until after S60V, then ZDP 189. I first heard the term with ATS 34 and Benchmades line of Emersons. By then IIRC 440V was being talked about in magazines and shortly afterwards Spyderco brought it out in a Millie.

440C was very much used in customs back then as it still is. Especially in art knives. Those looking for the highest performance were going to things like W2 with differential hardening, forging was very big and 52100 was only available in bearing, races, etc. Stock removal had everything from L6 to 440C, to Vascowear, etc.

When powder steels came out 440C was quickly left behind as it has limitations compared to powder stainless steelsCompare the toughness of Elmax to stainless, or the wear resistance of M390, S90V, S110V, etc.

440C was and is good in it's day and still to this day but it was never a top of the line performer IMO. Kind of like S30V now. Good, but not the top performer and taken for granted despite it's honestly good attributes. S30V is VERY much more wear resistant, tougher, and even more corrosion resistant ( depending on heat treat) than 440C but you rarely hear people giving it the respect it deserves, or call it "super steel". It is especially compared to the steels of the 60's, 70's, and early 80's.

Another statement thrown around here I disagree with is that people couldn't tell the difference between 440C and the new powder steels like Elmax and M390. I don't agree with this. It's like holding up the one of ten guys that can't read well and using him as an example of what Americans are like. It's just not the case IMO.

People regularly find the smallest details and get really angry over them. My guess is if they expected M390 performance and got 440C they would be pretty dissatisfied. It's not good to underestimate people. Most people here are above average experience wise re: knives, sharpening and steels. There are of course exceptions. To think everyone is stupid is cynical and an incorrect judgement.
 
IMO, charts like that make people feel better about the sprint runs they will keep in their safes
 
A.P.F. your description of saw tooth edge is perhaps best seen with the D2with it's large carbides. However even a S35VN can have a saw tooth edge but it's a fine sawtooth .I sharpen mine that way all the time !!! Like it better that way !
 
Just out of curiosity, when 440C was in its heyday what other stainless steel had better performance and was available in non-custom knives? Perhaps I missed it because I was just a kid. It seems 440C would have been a good mix of edge-holding and corrosion resistance back then.

Back in 1989 and the early 90's I recall 440C being widely regarded as the best available stainless steel for use in the marine saltwater environment. At lease in the circles I ran in. The choices were limited but on the ship's I was on at he time 440C was the most desired.

You also have to take into account at the time there was no Internet and information on steels was not as readily available as it is today. You relied on word of mouth and manufactures catalog's for the most part. But I'll say this, if you asked me back then what I thought was the best SS I would have said 440C.
 
IMO, charts like that make people feel better about the sprint runs they will keep in their safes

Absolutely. "Using" a knife to most of those fellers means cutting an errant string off the cuff of their suit, opening a letter, maybe even (God forbid) slicing an apple. Most of the supersteel blades will never even see that minimal amount of use.
 
440C only gets a "bad rap" with people who believe that if it doesn't come from Crucible or Carpenter and wasn't co-formulated by a Chris Reeve/Mick Strider/Rick Hinderer super-team, it's not worthwhile.
 
I was curious who created the chart that Jill posted. I'd like to use it in an article I'm working on as a point of reference.
 
The chart has no units given for its scale, but it compares different propterties, all of which are measured by different methods with different units. Thus the chart is useless w/o a description of how the tests were done and how the test results were turned into numbers for the comparison in this figure. It looks like it was developed by a marketing department of a knife company.

The chart could be just "made up" and be someone's opinion. IIRC Bark River's website has a similar one, and well...

I have knives in both steels and like them both. Not much difference in every day use, but I belive the S35VN holds its edge longer. More like dendritic 440C, which to me is the best version of 440C for cutting. That's just an opinion, no testing was done.
 
I have tested many of the steels listed in the chart, in slicing and cutting tests. Edge retention. How they stand depends much on heat treat and if the blade was given a cryogenic soak. I noted some 440C cut less sisal rope than 154cm and others cut right with S30V. That's certainly a premium steel performance, before the term 'super steel' came along. These are all very good steels. Charts are for marketing folks to promote their products. They normally don't test or use them.
Guys who do don't feel the need to run to the latest, whiz-bang powdered steel that happens to be in vogue. DM
 
I'm not saying that the chart is the absolute gospel of truth, but it is a valuable data point. I'd just like to credit the author.
 
I'm not saying that the chart is the absolute gospel of truth, but it is a valuable data point. I'd just like to credit the author.
No, it isn't. It's a mix of half-understood facts, opinions, and a fair sprinkling of outright nonsense. I don't have the link handy, but almost everything in it was debunked in a thread here some time ago.

I was curious who created the chart that Jill posted. I'd like to use it in an article I'm working on as a point of reference.

Don't do that. It's deeply flawed. Just because someone put pretty colors on it and make it look "professional" doesn't mean it's terribly helpful.

Comparing 2 or 3 steels with the same hardness and geometry is tricky enough. Comparing 10 or 15 alloys from totally different knives and assigning them made-up "values" based on who-knows-what may get you close to the ballpark, but it's hardly worth hanging your hat on. Repeating that sort of thing as "research" just because someone else re-posted a chart is unwise at best.

If you want points of reference, learn about what various steels are actually made of, how and why, and look up some datasheets with info like Charpy tests, abrasion tests, etc etc.
 
Comparing 2 or 3 steels with the same hardness and geometry is tricky enough. Comparing 10 or 15 alloys from totally different knives and assigning them made-up "values" based on who-knows-what may get you close to the ballpark, but it's hardly worth hanging your hat on. Repeating that sort of thing as "research" just because someone else re-posted a chart is unwise at best.

Actually it's not talking about any actual knives, but simply about the ideal properties of the steel itself, relative to other steels. Once you forge that steel into a knife blade, many other factors come into play - absolutely. But the chart does have limited value.

So we don't know who produced the chart? If I could figure out who produced it, I might be able to figure out how they arrived at the results.
 
Back
Top