440c ?

G

gredpe3

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Sep 22, 2012
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To the Knife Makers that have used 440C.Tell me alittle about it,actually alot about it.Have any of you successfully quenched it in oil?Would plate quench be the way to go?I want to try the steel but need some real world feed back.I plan on some Chef Knives for family and would like it to be stainless/also would like to do it all my self.I do not have a heattreatng oven,only a gas forge.
Eddie
 
At one time 440-C was all I used. I had it heat treated in a very special shop that used a vacuum chamber and then gave it a cryo treatment. It is absolutely not a stainless that was to be quenched in oil. Is any stainless hardenable that way? I of one known maker that wrote he did it by oil quenching. I could never believe much of anything he wrote about after that. I found it to a good cutting, very rust free steel. Frank
 
440-C is a very good steel for kitchen knives. I would not try to H/T it in a forge. To get the most out of it you need controlled temps and cryo.

Stan
 
I did google it before I posted this ? Hard to know what to believe out there.You guys always seem to shoot it straight.Thanks for the info.
Eddie
 
I have used 440C a bit and have had very good results with it. Very nice to work with and finish, but it has to be precisely heat treated.
I think that the 154 series of steels can be oil quenched. I tried it once and did not get better results than plate quenching so it was not worth the mess.
Peters did my first few 440C blades and I do them now. They are a great heat treater to work with.
Good Luck
 
440C is a good quality cutlery steel at a very reasonable price. It is a stock removal steel, and that is made easier by the vast availability of it in nearly any thickness and width.

440C and CPM-154 can be done with an interrupted oil quench, but plate quenching is a better choice. You need a programmable HT oven no matter how you quench it.

Forging 440C is posible, but can cause problems, and doing the HT in a forge will probably ruin the blade.
 
There is absolutely no reason to use 440C or 154CM today unless you're really pinching pennies (which is unwise). If you're gonna go with inexpensive stainless, you're much better off with AEB-L (which is an excellent steel, despite its low cost).

There are three reasons for my statement:

A) what's currently being sold as 440C/154CM is widely variable, and a lot of it is remarkably unclean. Huge clumps of carbides that you can actually see on the surface and riddled with inclusions.

B) "powder steels" such as CPM-154, S30V, S35VN, CTS-XHP, Elmax etc are simply better-performing alloys with much finer structure. That means more toughness, better edge-holding, and prettier finishes. In a typical knife, they will indeed cost more - about the same amount as a good lunch. Is one lunch worth a lifetime of superior performance? Yup.

C) 440C/154CM were "top of the pops" in the 60's/70's. A lot has happened since then. Knowledgeable knife buyers/users are aware of that.
 
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I've achieved great results HT-ing 440c in a forge, but I emphatically DO NOT recommend it. It's way too much work to make a really nice knife to go hit/miss with one of the most important parts of the process when there are such good shops that will do it quick, well and not charge much. Compare your time redoing a knife with the cost of professional heat treatment- no brainer.
 
I respect all of your opinions,thanks for the replys.I gonna talk to Aldo and get the right thickness carbon steel and rock on.If the people I plan to gift these to don't take care of them,it's on them.
Eddie
 
You are right to call Aldo. He can help you get what you need.

gredpe3 said:
If the people I plan to gift these to don't take care of them,it's on them.
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Wrong, wrong, wrong. Client input is obviously important, but it's just plain dumb to say "if they can't take care of it, it's on them." I daresay that attitude is shameful, and offensive to those of us who make fine knives for a living... not to mention the people who pay us to do so.

Try to figure out what they need, and make knives for them that will suit their purposes and skills. Not knives that suit your ego or techniques.
 
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james terrio said:
You are right to call Aldo. He can help you get what you need.



Wrong, wrong, wrong. Client input is obviously important, but it's just plain dumb to say "if they can't take care of it, it's on them." I daresay that attitude is shameful, and offensive to those of us who make fine knives for a living... not to mention the people who pay us to do so.

Try to figure out what they need, and make knives for them that will suit their purposes and skills. Not knives that suit your ego or techniques.
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QTF,even though it is gifts for family, making something that they won't take care of does no good. If all they will take care of is stainless then spend the few extra bucks on outsourcing H/T and give them something they will appreciate for a long time.
Just my.02

Stan
 
If you care about your knives, and the gifts you give....
Get some CPM-S35VN from Aldo and make the best blades you have the ability to do. Send them in a batch to Peter's HT and have them done at Rc 61-62. They will come back perfect and each blade will be tested. Finish them and give them with pride.
Anything less, and you might as well go to Wal-Mart and buy some knives as gifts.

The cost for the steel and the HT will be about $30 a blade. Add some nice handles and the sandpaper, and you can make $150 knives for about $50-60.
 
bladsmth said:
If you care about your knives, and the gifts you give....
Get some CPM-S35VN from Aldo and make the best blades you have the ability to do. Send them in a batch to Peter's HT and have them done at Rc 61-62. They will come back perfect and each blade will be tested. Finish them and give them with pride.
Anything less, and you might as well go to Wal-Mart and buy some knives as gifts.

The cost for the steel and the HT will be about $30 a blade. Add some nice handles and the sandpaper, and you can make $150 knives for about $50-60.
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As much as I like the idea of doing MY own heat treat I've gotta agree.

I made my wife a fine kitchen knife from carbon steel. It really is an excellent cutter and would probably be the most used knife if I had only done it in SS. Honestly, that knife sits in a blade case in the cabinet doing nothing until I reach for it. It's actually caused more than one argument after it was left in a wet sink or (God help me) run through the dishwasher.

In my mind a knife HT'd by me is a more thoughtful effort, but in the real world my family just wants knives that they can actually use and would be even more proud of it if they actually could. :o
 
Strigamort said:
In my mind a knife HT'd by me is a more thoughtful effort, but in the real world my family just wants knives that they can actually use and would be even more proud of it if they actually could. :o
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That real world stuff is a bear, isn't it...I learned that the hard way too, there are people who just can't have carbon steel.
 
The initial thought on stainless was so they would not have to take special care.And I really don't think they will.Once again you guys have steered me away from my ignorant thoughts.I'll get over it and send out for heat treat.Thanks for the input.I really didn't mean to offend anyone.
Eddie
 
Good to hear James,You guys are the best resource I have.I want to do the right thing,just need a little push in the correct direction.I am looking at the different SS selections now.I'm going to do 1 or 2 in carbon to make sure it's what i want,then pull the trigger on some SS.
Eddie
 
gredpe3 said:
I did google it before I posted this ? Hard to know what to believe out there.You guys always seem to shoot it straight.Thanks for the info.
Eddie
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No offense taken,it's just sometimes the answer is not what you want to hear.

Stan
 
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