5160 -- an overlooked/underrated steel?

S

storyville

Joined
Aug 11, 1999
Messages
1,111
Hello all,

Been mostly out of town and country, and offline, for a month -- am shocked at how much has changed in that time. Nice to be back.

Anyway, I’d be curious to hear feedback on 5160. Many experienced and starting makers in Shoptalk like it for its cost, availability, and ease in working and treating, but it doesn’t get much comment in the General forum, except occasionally as a good material for “big choppers.” Yet its combination of great toughness, edge-holding, and ease of sharpening should make it a good candidate for any size blade, no?

Newt Livesay and TOPS (I believe) favor 1095, and are reputed for affordable knives which can be used in hell and still keep ticking. Yet well-treated 5160 appears to be a much better steel than 1095 in virtually every respect -- a more affordable version of 52100 or INFI. Any reason it isn’t more popular in a variety of blade designs? (Or perhaps I'm just out of the loop?)

Besides being fairly “easy to rust,” are there other “negatives” to consider in 5160?

Glen
 
The argument on paper is that it is not as hardenable, and therefore does not have as much edge holding potential, as a steel with more Carbon in it, like 1095.

It is therefore thought of more as a big blade steel where toughness is just as important as edge holding, or more so.

On a small knife where chopping is not an issue, a person is usually better off with a harder, more wear resistant, though less tough steel.
 
A lot of people consider 5160 a sword steel where it excels.It makes a great working sword if kept on the soft side. Well forged by a good smith it makes an excellent knife that will hold it's own with more popular steels though not as tough as 52100. Any forged blade is only as good as the man swinging the hammer.
I am waiting and looking forward to being able to swing 2 swords in the near future
One in 52100 and another lighter one in L6.
The smith said that the L6 is holding up to the anvil test pretty good on the ones he's been testing , flexible and reasonably tough. Anvil test consists of beating an anvil until the blade is destroyed.
These are the cases of destructive testing that I see useful. The ones done by the bladesmith.
 
I`m a big fan of 5160. GH and HI khukuris are all 5160 and generally get good reviews. I also make some stock removal knives in 5160 myself. I`ve been amazed how well it performs not only in big choppers but even in smaller FB utility knives and hunters. When heat treated appropriately edge holding is very good. Marcus
 
It's said that if the smith properly packs the edge you came up with a great small blade.
I don't have much experience with knives as small as utility knives in 5160 but don't doubt what they tell me. . I'd bet a small knife with a slightly rough sharpened edge will be a super good cutter.
A good bladesmith doesn't have to rely on Hitachi or crucible to have his blades perform. Or bos to finish the job.
He transforms a hunk of steel to a fine cutting tool and hopefully with it a thing of beauty. Some obviously do it better than others.
It's also a little more difficult for the knife buyer to make his choice.
 
Marcus
What hardness do you take the small blades to in order to get the performance that you mentioned?
 
Most folks don't like it as much because it is not "in" right now.
I like 5160. I still use it on occasions. If a person had only one steel to make all his pieces I would use the 5160. Since the carbon content varies you just have to vary your draw tempature with each batch a bit. On my personal knife I make each year I draw mine back a bit softer than I would sell. I like the lower 50's on hardness. About 54. I get a more aggressive cutting edge. When I hit the woods I do not want to carry a pocket full of stones and if the edge is more aggressive I have to put the blade to it fewer times so it will hold up as long with the way I cut.
Maybe according to the papers it does not hold up as well as some other steels but there are many varibles in the forge. And on paper a Bee is not supposed to be able to fly.
The carbon content it not the only thing that makes a blade harden. 1084 has less carbon than 1095 but it hardens deeper due to the manganese content.
jf
 
If Fisk uses it it must be a top notch steel. 5160 is not the best in appearance sometimes due to inclusions, but they don't hurt the quality of the knife. A side note, Why would General Motors have used it as truck springs for so many years if it wasn't a good steel. Like the feller says "They aint no dummies".



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old pete
 
Ed Fowler used 5160 until Wayne Goddard asked him to try 52100....that being said, Ed still liked the cutting ability of the 5160. As Fisk says it's all the individual maker, it depends on who is forging.

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~Greg Mete~
Kodiak Alaska
 
As with most steels the secret is not so much in the alloy but much more in the correct heat treating. A simple steel with a good heat treat will make a much better blade than the best steel with a bad heat treat.

If treated right with the correct normalizing and annealing cycles, double or triple hardening, maybe a cryo quench and at least two tempering cycles it will be hard to find another steel that is really MUCH better in overall quality than 5160. I used a lot of it in small knives and always did get positive comments about edge holding, ease of sharpening and toughness.

By the way: the "packing" theory of some smiths doesn't stand up to metallurgic research. What these smiths do is simple. They refine the grain by multiple low heat cycles. For the quality of the crystalline structure of the steel the forging is not necessary. What makes the forged blade better is the changing of the grain flow that occures during forging.

Achim
 
Wow, thanks for *all* of the great replies -- I’ve *really* been missing this place. I appreciate your informed opinions from such diverse regions and countries.

Especially great -- and unexpected -- honor to have Mr. Fisk drop in, the most valuable “2¢” in town.

The replies so far appear to support my sense that 5160 remains more highly regarded among makers than the broader “knife public.” Perhaps it simply isn’t “in,” as Mr. Fisk suggests.

But given the more sobering recent assessments of many of the “holy grail” materials touted over the past few years (yes, I’m as much a part of the fashion horde as any), perhaps 5160 may see a revival in the near future. Alongside the interest in “cutting edge” technology and materials, there does appear to be a growing interest in a back-to-basics ethos. The “Neo-Primitive” makers may be the most dramatic expression of it, but bladesmiths in general seem to have been committed to it all along. The more things change, the more they stay the same? We’ll see over the next few years, I suppose.

Thanks again, all --

Glen
 
Storyville,

I think that the primary reason more guys don't order 5160 is because of the "inclusions" on the blade, which have no effect of it's performance, nor is it an indication that it's a "flawed" steel.
Most all think that it's mostly good for choppers...I disagree. I have one made by Ed Caffrey and it holds an edge with any steel and is easily re-sharpened. The Caffrey has a 3 1/2" flat ground blade that is very thin and man is it a user!! I love it.
While on the subject of forged steels, I like all of them, never had one yet that wasn't great for a knife blade, however, have had a couple of 52100 that would not perform as expected, and I think that was due to a improper heat-treatment.
 
Usually when I hear someone mention 5160 I always think of sword steel,I don't recall anyone I've heard using it for a knife on a normal basis.It would be interesting to see how well it performs when the blade is made and hardened right.I had a sword made of 5160 and it made a nice flexible sword.I didn't notice any inclusions or defects in the steel,but as far as edge holding I have no idea.chow,Ralph
 
One of the things to keep in mind is that a "tougher" steel can sometimes be taken to a thinner edge at a relatively high hardness without being too fragile. Perhaps this is why Larry's knife works so well and why A2 is my fave.

-Bart
 
5160 has only recently become readily available to knifemakers in thin enough barstock to make smaller knives by stock removal. Now there's an alternative to beating out old leaf springs we'll probably be seeing a lot more smaller knives made of 5160.

-Cougar :{)
 
As for Mr fisk's comments on 5160. I have forged it quite often . I do feel that there can be some mill runs out there that are not quite and refined as others. But as for edge holding an durability it is a great steel.
The difference I feel is in the way it is heat treated. What I like is the diff temper. Makes a great blade. AS for 1095 Sorry Im am not a fan.
I have had many more problems with it than I have ever had with 5160.

AND once again I want to post a disclaimer here
This post is from my records and not a general post . Do not cut my post . Post it all.
Blade quality may vary from one person to the next. These are just facts from my records and not certifications of the steels performance.
I have to do this now for others who have intent other than conversation.

And Jerry . If a blade were sent to a tester made from 5160 and 1095 the differnce would be minimal. The problem is public opinion.
It is not an IN STEEL.


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Web Site At www.darrelralph.com

[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 07-02-2000).]
 
Achim
Missed that part about "packing" the edge. You are right. I was taught to "pack" the edge. Matter of fact is was explained to me when I was starting out "When you hammer many light blows at a lower tempature it fractures the molecues to make them tighter". Just glad I did not have that mushroom cloud over me from the bang. But at the time that was what was thought. Over time I learned what was really going on with the grain structure and how to restore it.

As to the inclusions in 5160. I talked with the steel mills about that. What I was told was...5160 is not a cosmetic steel so it can have inclusions. The little lines in the steel is what the mills calls "zits". I have seen them go all the way through the steel. It is found mostly in the 1 1/4" or 1" sizes. To date I have not found it in the 1 1/2" sizes. One of the problems is I have seen it come in at .40 carbon and as much as .70 carbon. You have to analize each batch so you can draw proper.

Interesting in that as I understand it John Greco will only buy steel milled in the spring and summer.He says there is a bit of difference in steel as to when they are milled.

Darrell
I agree your shot on 5160 versus the 1095 sent without labels and knowledge of what it is. I have never liked 1095. ptu! ptu! [instert spitting here!]
1084 is a wonderful steel but it is some different than 1095.

And if you want to kick 5160 up a notch then water quench it instead of oil quenching. Zounds, the more I play with that the better I like it. I will be playing with that more this winter.

As was stated earlier, it all goes back to the smith/maker. Besides, I personally think edge geometry is the most important thing on the knife. You can take crap steel and make it cut better and take excellent steel and it won't cut boiled okra if not ground well.
 
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