5160 -- an overlooked/underrated steel?

Fisk has got it (see my first post). I hope everybody that buys knives reads the new YTK articles about those KaBar knives. The one with 440A outcut the D2 and BG42 knives. Ain't it great. I'm sure it's edge wasn't very durable, but that's why you have to go with the low alloy steels.

-Bart
 
Fisk has got it (see my first post). I hope everybody that buys knives reads the new YTK articles about those KaBar knives. The one with 440A outcut the D2 and BG42 knives. Ain't it great. I'm sure it's edge wasn't very durable, but that's why you have to go with the low alloy steels.

-Bart
 
Fisk :

if you want to kick 5160 up a notch then water quench it instead of oil quenching.
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There was a discussion about this awhile ago, I think in the Shop Talk forum. Basically it was water+5160 = not good. Interesting to see you say the opposite. I have several blades that are 5160 that are edge water quenched to the high fifties and I like the durability and strength. They are however the only 5160 blades I have so I have no basis for a comparison heat-treat wise.

I personally think edge geometry is the most important thing on the knife.
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I think that geometry is critical, and of course you can make a bad blade out of any thing, but you should be able to craft a better cutting blade from a better material as a stronger/tougher material will be functional at a more acute geometry.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 07-03-2000).]
 
Cliff.
Yes Sir. I like your last coments on edge gemoetry. I have often been called an old dinosaur for my methods in the shop. There are several variables with the water quenching that could lead to problems. Water not warm enough, edge not prepared for water, Clay too far down and a couple more but those are the most common. When I quench with water I have to up the draw temperature a bit. It will give good bite during cutting if done right. Sounds like you have some good blades in your collection
jf
 
TomW,sorry I haven`t been keeping up with this thread. I use a simplified version of Ed Caffery`s method and shoot for 58-60RC for small 5160 blades. My methods aren`t as precise as I`d like but for the small number of blades I make it seems to be fine. The first 5160 knife I ever made was sold to a local farmer/rancher as his daily work knife. He was tired of sharpening/breaking Walmart type knives. It was a 5" blade drop point with a 5/16" spine(!),a drastic distal taper and a full convex grind to a thin edge. He`s been using it daily for 2 years,he hasn`t broken it and said he`s only touched up the edge once or twice to keep it shaving sharp. That`s pretty good performance for a piece of `78 TransAm leaf spring!
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Marcus
 
Fisk, concerning low RC edges and aggression, I remembered you saying this about a year or so ago and about six months ago I was discussing something with Phil Wilson and he mentioned the exact same thing.

The problem that Phil had however was that the edge rolled too easily for him so while the blade was an excellent cutter on soft materials (ropes, fabrics, flesh, cardboard etc. ) as soon as it hit something hard it would blunt almost immediately due to rolling. Do your low RC blade behave the same way?


Sounds like you have some good blades in your collection
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I am getting there. I am looking for a high quality forged bowie for my next big purchase but I don't know enough yet to figure out what exactly I need to get the performance I want. In about a year or two I will be there hopefully.

-Cliff
 
Mr. Cliff
By the sound of it mine must be just a point or two higher than his. That can be a fine line. My personal one will not cut cans or other metals without turning a bit but I only use it on organic materials anyway and it does fine. I have another piece that I use on anything non organic.

You are doing fine by researching on Bowies and preformance before buying. You will get a better piece and better value by educating yourself first. If you need any opinions or thoughts on up and coming smiths let me know, I will be happy to help.
fisk
 
Fisk
Your tellin all the good secrets here ssssshhhhhh..
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The problem is misconception in the knife market of carbons and heat treating. Just like the ABS test that we do to prove a maker can make a knife and heat treat it to the test requirement. Folks think we make everything to these standards. But that is not true.

Oil and Brine edge quenching is a BMF in my opinon if the process is controlled properly.
Cliff some smiths understand the process to perform different process's and some dont.
Oil and Brine quenching has to be done right or cracking occurs. I agree with Fisk also on intended purpose of the blade that you using.
Some cut flesh ect and work better for the intened purpose. This gets back to the nuances that the makers understands about intened purpose. Getting the highest rc is not the only goal for some knives. They will perform in some ways better than others.

Edge geometery is the key to good knives along with good heat treating practices and the understand of how the knife or blade will be used.
With edge quenching we have an advatage that some bladesmiths know about. Impact resistance changes, edge holding changes,toughness is a big change, the phyical being of the steel is just not recorded. I like that . These are knives and blades that are superior im book to full hardend blades as for performance in SOME type of blades. Ive seen it and done it as you have. Ive had just one inclusion in a blade with 5160. Thats out of many so what the hell. I just threw it in the corner and made another. I like 1084 as you do also for these types of knives. 51200 is great if processed properly.
So are super steels better? I think that both
3v and carbons are good in big blades.
I feel they all have there place. 3v allows for stock removal to get a simular result.
I have tested both. I like both.
3v is a great steel for big blades. As for better well I have to back out here.
I feel 3v and some carbons (as it is BTW)
all perform well.
My next quest after testing 3v in a full hard tempered blade is to diff temper it in a big blade. I have done this in a few small blades to get results. It worked . The way the spec sheets are written it should work .. So will 420v
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BTDT... Also mar quenching that is another facet also. What about banite tempering with a flame hardend egde
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I talked to the metalurgist at crucible. They said they felt a diff temper could work on 3v in oil if the process was controlled properly. So im off on another tangent. There only reservation was cracking. Well hell we deal with that on the simple carbons also so no big deal.


Just my .02 cents worth.


------------------
Web Site At www.darrelralph.com

[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 07-06-2000).]
 
Mr. Fisk, to be more specific, this is one of the examples that Phil used :

"I made a fillet knife out of 420V with a finish hardness of 52. It was a nasty cutter, and would cut for a long time slicing fillets off of salmon (very fine bones) but as soon as I cut against a board with a little force like cutting off a head or tail it went dull. Edge roll I expect."

I have seen the same thing time and time again with very soft blades. They hold coarse edges really well and cut excellently but will flatten or roll on impact readily. I gave up on them because of this because if you glance off of anything hard, or as Phil described be a bit careless and use too much force you can flatten large sections of the blade.

The other large factor was as the steel gets softer it gets weaker and I wanter to be able to get a really thin edge for optimal cutting ability and thus I wanted a high level of strength to be able to support it. However I forgot to consider the extra aggression of the softer steel might allow a higher slicing ability as compared to a thinner bevel on a harder steel. That is a very important point.

Mainly though I overlooked as you noted that there can be a very functional middle ground where the blade is hard enough to withstand the occasional high strain and strong enough for a really thin edge but it not that hard that the aggression is low.

Thanks for the comments, unfortunately this complicates the matter as I thought I had it down solid and knew right where to go and now I am no longer as sure. It does open up some interesting possibilities. I think I will opt for some softer tempered small blades and see what kind of performance I can get.

Thanks for the offer about the makers, I will probably drop you a line in a year or so.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 07-07-2000).]
 
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