5160 steel for what kind of knives

Where does the information come from that 13% Cr steels don't have much Cr carbide, but have iron carbide instead? When researching those types of steels a while ago, all the sources I found showed either Cr23C6 or Cr7C3.
 
me2 said:
Where does the information come from that 13% Cr steels don't have much Cr carbide, but have iron carbide instead? When researching those types of steels a while ago, all the sources I found showed either Cr23C6 or Cr7C3.
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They definitely have chromium carbides not iron carbides.
 
IIRC, Kevin Cashen started playing around with 52100 to debunk some of those sea stories. I seem to recall that he discovered what a few guys like Bob Kramer had known for a while about lower temp austenizing. ;)
 
kuraki said:
Well, define quality. 5160 that is "fairly close" to 52100 in chemical composition is wildly out of spec. If you mean close to 52100 performance, I still find that hard to believe unless it's out of spec because that .4% difference in carbon is about the most important .4% for performance, everything after being carbide fodder. Even if it makes a knife that's superior to 5160 that is in spec, to me that's not quality.

I don't think AEB-L is magic. I think it's relatively poor wear resistance and excellent toughness line right up with the fact that it's nearly identical to 5160 in everything but chromium content, which being free chromium likely does little to reduce toughness. If it has any performance outside corrosion resistance that seems to exceed 5160, then I would say you're more than likely correct in that it's because it's made to a higher quality standard with tighter controls than most 5160.
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In a low alloy steel, .6% carbon is the saturation point; over .6% the carbon doesn’t confer much more edge holding unless a lot of extra chromium or tungsten or vanadium is added.
Edit: I’m no expert, this is what I’ve read.
 
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Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
When the first zombie shows up, I will have plenty of time to forge 5160 zombie decapitators. I'll wait until then to list those type blades.
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If they are walking dead zombies, you just need to lock the door. If they are Z zombies, 28 days later or “girl with the gifts” zombies you might not have enough time.
 
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Larrin said:
A better carbon steel equivalent would be 52100 with its small volume of fine carbides. But AEB-L has harder chromium carbides for better edge retention and wear resistance.

A closer approximation of stainless 5160 would be something like 12C27M.
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I wish that were the case with regard to lateral load toughness!
 
Ok, I admit that was completely wrong in what I said. I will correct it. I was trying to oversimplify it and avoid the complex carbide types. In my head I inadvertantly mixed up cementite (Fe3C), which is iron carbide, with martensite which is a body centric structure of iron and carbon. Can't say how that happened. I should stop doing three things at a time anymore. My apology ..
 
Larrin said:
You have numbers comparing “lateral load toughness” for the two?
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No numbers and my observation is not scientific, but I haven’t used my large 12c27 chopper since the edge deformed by 1/4” where my blades In s7 and 5169 sustained microscopic rolling.
 
Yonose said:
No numbers and my observation is not scientific, but I haven’t used my large 12c27 chopper since the edge deformed by 1/4” where my blades In s7 and 5169 sustained microscopic rolling.
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An edge deforming is not due to poor toughness, but insufficient hardness or geometry.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
Ok, I admit that was completely wrong in what I said. I will correct it. I was trying to oversimplify it and avoid the complex carbide types. In my head I inadvertantly mixed up cementite (Fe3C), which is iron carbide, with martensite which is a body centric structure of iron and carbon. Can't say how that happened. I should stop doing three things at a time anymore. My apology ..
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Its not you specifically. The notion that AEB L can't or won't form chromium carbides but can form iron carbides has been floating around a while. I really am curious where it started and how it keeps going.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
The only knife type that I would say it was not a good pick for is a fine slicer - kitchen knives, wood carving tools, etc.
Otherwise, it works for any general use knife like a hunter, and is great for rough use knives like choppers, camp knives, and bush swords.
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I have a Mini cleaver that i use in my kitchen all the time i made from 5160. It slices quite well. It was flat ground to nearly a zero edge from spine to edge though.
I’m starting to think geometry has more to with true performace rather than ultimate hardness these days. Hardness alows us to keep on slicing longer, but will not make a knife cut better. Geometry is where it’s at.
 
A
me2 said:
Where does the information come from that 13% Cr steels don't have much Cr carbide, but have iron carbide instead? When researching those types of steels a while ago, all the sources I found showed either Cr23C6 or Cr7C3.
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Properly Ankerson? ROFL
 
Larrin said:
A better carbon steel equivalent would be 52100 with its small volume of fine carbides. But AEB-L has harder chromium carbides for better edge retention and wear resistance.

A closer approximation of stainless 5160 would be something like 12C27M.
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Ok. Thank you.
 
jdm61 said:
I know that some people don't always take Ed Fowler seriously
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I've been in this hobby about a year. After reading the book "Ed Fowlers Knife Talk" I'm inclined to agree. His by god this is the way it's done and it's how you're gonna do it attitude followed by the excerpt of why it's difficult to get new knife makers interested in the hobby was just mind-blowingly close minded.
 
me2 said:
Keep in mind that book is quite dated. People change their minds.
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He changes his mind frequently throughout even that book. As you say changing ones mind is not necessarily bad. In his articles many changes to heat treatment are presented along with amazing differences in properties (10x as many cuts!) but then later he presents another method and doesn't even include the former parameter that led to a 10x improvement. I can only conclude that the testing is not sufficiently controlled.
 
me2 said:
Keep in mind that book is quite dated. People change their minds.
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That may be but the text is forever. As someone new to this hobby it was repulsive, as in literally made me want to quit to get away from that type of attitude. I'm glad I've found a forum that's helpful and accepting. There's a lot of repetitive threads on here from "what can I make from this pile of stuff" to "I've decided I'm going to start making knives as a business, where do I start" ad infinitum and the overwhelming amount of them are met with positive, useful answers. Quite refreshing! That's the type of attitude that makes new knifemakers!
 
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