5160v?

gga357

gga357

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There probably is a steel that is basically 5160 with vanadium, anyone know? Seems as though 5160 with added V in it should be tougher and better wear resistant. Am I missing something in the chemistry? Seems like a simple upgrade.
 
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Well, almost.... ;) :)

I have about 200# of 6150. It's essentially the same chemistry as 5160, but it has Vanadium in it. I had it tested and to my happy surprise, the carbon content was on the very high end... actually a little over the normal range

Carbon- 0.58
Chromium- 0.80
Manganese- 0.70
Phosphorus- 0.035
Silicon- 0.15
Sulphur- 0.03
Vanadium- 0.20

I have made a few great big choppers out of it, and was very happy with them. I haven't done too much with it only because it's not a very well known steel to most customers.
 
At those levels I question how much the tiny amounts of Mn and V in 6150 are really making any difference for our purposes. I imagine they're helping the steel to harden deeply, but I doubt there's enough there to form any carbides that would really be noticeable. As for Vanadium in particular, it's my understanding that you need to get above 2% to really start building a lot of fine tough carbides that will seriously help with wear-resistance.

There is a fairly simple upgrade (chemically) that will give you excellent toughness at high hardnesses, great wear resistance, surprisingly good corrosion resistance, and is very well known by customers - CPM-3V. It's more expensive than 5160 though, and better suited to stock-removal than forging as far as I know. But it makes one heck of a knife.
Carbon - .8%
Chromium - 7.5%
Vanadium - 2.75%
Molybdenum - 1.3%

I've posted a couple challenges to compare 5160 to 3V side by side in performance testing, and have had a few nibbles but no takers yet.
 
Thanks Nick, very interesting! Maybe something to think about for a project....
 
james terrio said:
I've posted a couple challenges to compare 5160 to 3V side by side in performance testing, and have had a few nibbles but no takers yet.
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I've actually got some 3V sitting in my shop right now, waiting for me to grind out another gladius to go with the 5160 version I already made. I will be interested to see how it pans out. The 3V is something like 5 times more expensive than the 5160 though. I'm kinda not really thinking it's going to be 5 times better. I'm probably going to have Darrin do the HT, as usual, but he's never done 3V before, and considering how expensive the stuff is, I'm a little nervous.
 
james terrio said:
At those levels I question how much the tiny amounts of Mn and V in 6150 are really making any difference for our purposes. I imagine they're helping the steel to harden deeply, but I doubt there's enough there to form any carbides that would really be noticeable. As for Vanadium in particular, it's my understanding that you need to get above 2% to really start building a lot of fine tough carbides that will seriously help with wear-resistance.

There is a fairly simple upgrade (chemically) that will give you excellent toughness at high hardnesses, great wear resistance, surprisingly good corrosion resistance, and is very well known by customers - CPM-3V. It's more expensive than 5160 though, and better suited to stock-removal than forging as far as I know. But it makes one heck of a knife.
Carbon - .8%
Chromium - 7.5%
Vanadium - 2.75%
Molybdenum - 1.3%

I've posted a couple challenges to compare 5160 to 3V side by side in performance testing, and have had a few nibbles but no takers yet.
Click to expand...

I agree, I am very happy with my 3V knives.
 
6150 has higher Cr and the V in those small amounts is there just for smaller grain size.
 
crimsonfalcon07 said:
I'm probably going to have Darrin do the HT, as usual, but he's never done 3V before, and considering how expensive the stuff is, I'm a little nervous.
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The procedure isn't any more complex than other tools steels, really. If Darrin looks up the appropriate temperatures and ramp/soak times I'm sure it will be fine. It's my understanding that cryo is pretty important to bring out the best in it.
 
james terrio said:
The procedure isn't any more complex than other tools steels, really. If Darrin looks up the appropriate temperatures and ramp/soak times I'm sure it will be fine. It's my understanding that cryo is pretty important to bring out the best in it.
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Awesome. I am definitely looking forward to trying it out. 6150 sounds interesting too, might have to look into that.
 
gga357 said:
At what point would the V be significant to edge retention?
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Mete knows a lot more about this than I do, but here's my understanding of it: even small amounts help keep the grain size small during HT, which is always a good thing for toughness. When you get around or above 2% V (I don't know the exact percentage), it begins to form lots of lovely, small, very hard carbides (harder than tungsten carbides) throughout the steel. That's what improves the edge retention, and also makes it such a pain to polish.
 
james terrio said:
I've posted a couple challenges to compare 5160 to 3V side by side in performance testing, and have had a few nibbles but no takers yet.
Click to expand...
I'll make a 5160 test blade and do my best heat treat, if you copy it in 3V and do the testing. I think 3V will out perform the 5160 but agree that it would be an interesting undertaking. I just don't have the time to do the testing.
 
Rick Marchand said:
I'll make a 5160 test blade and do my best heat treat, if you copy it in 3V and do the testing. I think 3V will out perform the 5160 but agree that it would be an interesting undertaking. I just don't have the time to do the testing.
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More nibbles! :)

My challenge has always been, my design and geometry (ground by me) in both 3V and 5160, both HT'ed and tempered to the same hardness. I would pick 58-59Rc as a reasonable range for both alloys, for a large knife. And I'll bet my dinner on 3V.

Another great challenge would be Rick's design and geometry (forged/ground by him) in the same steels, at the same hardness. Or any other steels he likes! The dude knows whereof he speaks. Let's take all the blades and beat the living snot out of them, starting with tests borrowed from the BladeSports folks and some of the ABS tests. That would be a lot of fun.

Here's the rub: If I may be so bold as to say so, neither Rick nor I has a lot of free time to "prove" what we both already know about the performance of our own designs and chosen alloys, and no other person has yet stepped up to provide the materials and compensate the considerable labor to make such a test happen. Frankly, that's a very expensive proposition, and there's really no reason to do it.
 
James , after about .30 V you'd get some significant carbides and by the time you get to 4.00 V you get what some consider too much like S30V. V still likes to concentrate in the grain boundaries. Some steels are now using Columbium [Cb or the other name Niobium, Nb] .That operates like V but spreads out through the matrix which is better.
 
mete said:
6150 has higher Cr and the V in those small amounts is there just for smaller grain size.
Click to expand...
I believe the chromium content of Nick's 6150 falls within the tolerance used in 5160, although 6150 spec ultimately allows for more.
 
mete said:
James , after about .30 V you'd get some significant carbides and by the time you get to 4.00 V you get what some consider too much like S30V. V still likes to concentrate in the grain boundaries. Some steels are now using Columbium [Cb or the other name Niobium, Nb] .That operates like V but spreads out through the matrix which is better.
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Thank you for the details :)
 
james terrio said:
More nibbles! :)

My challenge has always been, my design and geometry (ground by me) in both 3V and 5160, both HT'ed and tempered to the same hardness. I would pick 58-59Rc as a reasonable range for both alloys, for a large knife. And I'll bet my dinner on 3V.

Another great challenge would be Rick's design and geometry (forged/ground by him) in the same steels, at the same hardness. Or any other steels he likes! The dude knows whereof he speaks. Let's take all the blades and beat the living snot out of them, starting with tests borrowed from the BladeSports folks and some of the ABS tests. That would be a lot of fun.

Here's the rub: If I may be so bold as to say so, neither Rick nor I has a lot of free time to "prove" what we both already know about the performance of our own designs and chosen alloys, and no other person has yet stepped up to provide the materials and compensate the considerable labor to make such a test happen. Frankly, that's a very expensive proposition, and there's really no reason to do it.
Click to expand...

Do you believe the 3V will be tougher than the 5160 at 58-59RC? I have no doubt that 3V will have better edge retention, but toughness? Ability to survive being used for hard work? What size/kind of knife are we talking about? Test to destruction or to a repairable state? Let me know.
 
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