52100 edge retention

Nice variety of steel you have. Good to know 52100 is one of your favorites. If you not already stropping I bet it would aid in producing a hair shaving edge. Good for bringing back an edge with minimal effort. Thanks for your words on the subject.
Czechmate said:
Thanks, my nighttime cell phone photography skills aren't the best... :foot:;):D

It's a flat ground, v -edged blade out of .220" thick 52100. I've only been touching it up with a ceramic rod until it drags across my finger tips (perpendicular) to the edge. SO, probably working edge, maybe shaving but haven't tried that LOL! It cuts like a bastid though. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

I have knives in this size range in H1, S7, Infi, Sr101 (mod 52100), 3V, 1084, and 1095; this one might just be my favorite based on design and overall size as it has MUCH better edge geometry. Edge retention is better than I expected. :thumbup:
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shinyedges said:
Nice variety of steel you have. Good to know 52100 is one of your favorites. If you not already stropping I bet it would aid in producing a hair shaving edge. Good for bringing back an edge with minimal effort. Thanks for your words on the subject.
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Oh, that's far from all of em, I just mentioned a few that were similar sized. ;):p:D

Check out the "Just pics of knives" thread to see some recent fixed blade pics I posted. I think you'd like them. ;)

You're welcome BTW; I enjoy talking knives or I wouldn't be here so... :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
 
I'll check out " just pics of knives", I'm a steel connoisseur* I enjoy using them all. Having a place to discuss this hobby is awesome!
 
I've been working with 52100 for the last year. I currently run all of my knives using this steel at 60 Rc. At that hardness, it seems to strike a good balance between toughness and edge retention. I also like that it holds up well with acute bevel and edge geometry. It is not a "super steel" as far as edge retention goes, but IMO it easily makes up for it with how well it responds to edge touch ups with a strop. 52100 takes a very fine edge and can be made shaving sharp without any trouble by the end user. Definitely one of my favorite steels to both work with and use.

Bocote2.jpg
 
shinyedges said:
Thanks James your opinion is valued.
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That's very kind of you to say, and I sincerely appreciate the compliment.

But don't take my word for it; check it out yourself. ;)

I'm fairly certain that Mr. Buttry is on exactly the right track, running his 52100 knives at 60Rc for a good balance of the attributes we all desire in high-performance blades. :thumbup:
 
52100 is my personal favorite tool steel when ran around 59 HRC. I have used just about all the major tool steels from O1 to A2 and my choice is 52100 as I have yet to find a steel that equals it in toughness, edge holding, and its ability to take an insane freaking edge.
 
PatrickKnight said:
52100 is my personal favorite tool steel when ran around 59 HRC. I have used just about all the major tool steels from O1 to A2 and my choice is 52100 as I have yet to find a steel that equals it in toughness, edge holding, and its ability to take an insane freaking edge.
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Especially this for me.
 
Adam that is a beautiful knife, I like steels that respond well to a strop.

I will absolutely check it out James, with many experienced makers liking 52100 There is more than coincidence going on here.

Patrick, this steel sounds about exactly what I like in steel. glad you chimed in with your use of the other steels as well.. there are many choices and if 52100 is your choice that says something.
 
I did a batch of knives in 1095 and 52100....loved em both. Only downside to working with either is the constant battle against corrosion.

My current batch is all waterjet and CPM154.

Both 1095 and 52100 hold their edges very well although my 1095 seemed to get just a little bit finer of an edge.

Hope I helped.
 
shinyedges said:
I will absolutely check it out James, with many experienced makers liking 52100 There is more than coincidence going on here.
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You're right; it's not just coinky-dink or "hype" that so many makers, and more importantly, customers/knife users love it. 52100 wasn't originally designed for cutlery, but it just happens to work really well for our purposes. :)
 
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Lets explore this comparison of 1095 and 51200 a little more!

-1095-
Carbon: 0.9% - 1.03%
Manganese: 0.3% - 0.5%
Sulfur: 0.05%
Phosphorous: 0.04%

-52100-
Carbon: 0.98% - 1.1%
Chromium: 1.3% - 1.6%
Manganese: 0.25% - 0.45%
Silicon: 0.15% - 0.3%
Sulfur: 0.025%
Phosphorous: 0.025%

The first thing I notice when comparing the two is how clean (less impurities) 52100 is compared to 1095. Both sulfur and phosphorus are considered to be impurities in steel. Phosphorus can cause the steel to become more brittle after heat treating, however is relatively easy to remove during the steel making process. Sulfur can cause something known as Sulfur Embrittlement (aka - Red Shorting) when present in Iron. This basically causes the steel to become more brittle at higher temperatures (especially when forging or hot rolling). To combat this metallurgists turn to Manganese. It bonds with the sulfur creating a chemical compound that has a higher melting point and is much more malleable at higher temperatures, preventing red shorting. Manganese also adds a touch of corrosion resistance and acts as a deoxidizer at high temperatures. Since the sulfur content of 52100 is so low, it can get away with a slightly lower amount of Manganese. When small amounts of chromium are added to a steel this usually is to help form stable carbides in the grain boundaries of the steel increasing hardenability, rather than its more common role of corrosion inhibitor. When chromium and manganese are both added to a steel, this helps reduce the critical quenching speed making it easier to work with, however at these low levels I don't know if you would see a major difference (perhaps some of the more experienced knife makers can comment on that). The added silicon probably acts as a deoxidizer at higher temperatures. So with all of this information I would probably say that 52100 has the potential for slightly higher hardenability with comparable toughnesses with possibly a slight edge in 52100 due to its less present impurities (perhaps only noticeable in a laboratory setting). I would also say that they have similar wear resistance but once again a slight tip to 52100 due to its low but still present chromium content. Finally I would also say that 52100 has slightly better corrosion resistance, however with such a small amount of chromium at play I doubt it would be very noticeable.


The above makes several assumptions that the steels are both hardened to the same level and heat treated properly. If the maker screws up the heat treat than all the analysis above goes right out the window. It should be noted that I have not used 52100 before and am simply making educated guesses based on the chemical compositions. My information may be bad or my assumptions may be wrong, I would be interested to hear what others who have more hands on experience say about the above.

Hope this post was at least entertaining!
 
I've processed animals with kabars 1095cv (more than a few goat and deer) do you think the increased edge retention of 52100 will be noticeable for this task? No complaints on the kabars just curious.
james terrio said:
You're right; it's not just coinky-dink or "hype" that so many makers, and more importantly, customers/knife users love it. 52100 wasn't originally designed for cutlery, but it just happens to work really well for our purposes. :)
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Interesting, thanks for the input. From what gather 52100 should have a decent increase in edge retention over 1095.. I won't know until I put it to use in wood and animal processing though.
JCKT said:
Lets explore this comparison of 1095 and 51200 a little more!

-1095-
Carbon: 0.9% - 1.03%
Manganese: 0.3% - 0.5%
Sulfur: 0.05%
Phosphorous: 0.04%

-52100-
Carbon: 0.98% - 1.1%
Chromium: 1.3% - 1.6%
Manganese: 0.25% - 0.45%
Silicon: 0.15% - 0.3%
Sulfur: 0.025%
Phosphorous: 0.025%

The first thing I notice when comparing the two is how clean (less impurities) 52100 is compared to 1095. Both sulfur and phosphorus are considered to be impurities in steel. Phosphorus can cause the steel to become more brittle after heat treating, however is relatively easy to remove during the steel making process. Sulfur can cause something known as Sulfur Embrittlement (aka - Red Shorting) when present in Iron. This basically causes the steel to become more brittle at higher temperatures (especially when forging or hot rolling). To combat this metallurgists turn to Manganese. It bonds with the sulfur creating a chemical compound that has a higher melting point and is much more malleable at higher temperatures, preventing red shorting. Manganese also adds a touch of corrosion resistance and acts as a deoxidizer at high temperatures. Since the sulfur content of 52100 is so low, it can get away with a slightly lower amount of Manganese. When small amounts of chromium are added to a steel this usually is to help form stable carbides in the grain boundaries of the steel increasing hardenability, rather than its more common role of corrosion inhibitor. When chromium and manganese are both added to a steel, this helps reduce the critical quenching speed making it easier to work with, however at these low levels I don't know if you would see a major difference (perhaps some of the more experienced knife makers can comment on that). The added silicon probably acts as a deoxidizer at higher temperatures. So with all of this information I would probably say that 52100 has the potential for slightly higher hardenability with comparable toughnesses with possibly a slight edge in 52100 due to its less present impurities (perhaps only noticeable in a laboratory setting). I would also say that they have similar wear resistance but once again a slight tip to 52100 due to its low but still present chromium content. Finally I would also say that 52100 has slightly better corrosion resistance, however with such a small amount of chromium at play I doubt it would be very noticeable.


The above makes several assumptions that the steels are both hardened to the same level and heat treated properly. If the maker screws up the heat treat than all the analysis above goes right out the window. It should be noted that I have not used 52100 before and am simply making educated guesses based on the chemical compositions. My information may be bad or my assumptions may be wrong, I would be interested to hear what others who have more hands on experience say about the above.

Hope this post was at least entertaining!
Click to expand...
 
shinyedges said:
I've processed animals with kabars 1095cv (more than a few goat and deer) do you think the increased edge retention of 52100 will be noticeable for this task? No complaints on the kabars just curious.
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The "problem" with Ka-Bar's 1095CV isn't an issue of chemistry, it's just that they temper it back too soft. My suspicion is they do that because it's easier to machine that way. I think they run it around 56Rc... so comparing a 56Rc factory blade to any custom blade at 58 or 60Rc... yeah, you're gonna see a difference in edge-holding.

If you had identical blades made of 1095CV and 52100 at the same hardness... I doubt most of us would be able to tell the difference in normal use.
 
I don't mind sharpening, I'm not complaining at all I actually think they do fine. I was Just curious if I would see a noticeable difference. You bring a good point, I bet custom heat treat on a kabar would be very nice.
james terrio said:
The "problem" with Ka-Bar's 1095CV isn't an issue of chemistry, it's just that they temper it back too soft. My suspicion is they do that because it's easier to machine that way. I think they run it around 56Rc... so comparing a 56Rc factory blade to any custom blade at 58 or 60Rc... yeah, you're gonna see a difference in edge-holding.

If you had identical blades made of 1095CV and 52100 at the same hardness... I doubt most of us would be able to tell the difference in normal use.
Click to expand...
 
shinyedges said:
Interesting, thanks for the input. From what gather 52100 should have a decent increase in edge retention over 1095.. I won't know until I put it to use in wood and animal processing though.
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Having used both 1095 and 52100 in both production and custom knives I will go head and tell you now that at the same hardness 52100 will have noticeably longer edge retention than 1095. I am from Texas and used to hunt wild pig all the time if you want a true test of a steels edge holding ability cleaning a pig is a very good test. Also from my own uses 52100 also holds an edge a good bit longer on wood as well. When comparing 1095 to 52100 the only time 1095 will be better is on the price of the steel given all other factors are the same such as HT, stock thickness, grind, and geometry.

Also comparing 52100 at 59 HRC to any common production 1095 which is normally ran around 56 HRC really isn't fair because the 52100 is simply better. If you are curious if you will notice a large difference in a production 1095 blade and a 52100 blade yes you will notice a fairly large difference.
 
I feel like anyone who is a fan of 1095, or any of the 10xx series of steels, will absolutely LOVE 52100. As a knife maker, I can use whatever steel I want in my knives. With regards to choosing between those 2 (and all things being equal), I will choose to use 52100 every single time.
 
I agree with Adam... as a maker, there's really no reason not to use 52100 for "carbon" blades, unless you want to have a visible hamon/temper line. (1095 works better for that)

As to price... in my experience 52100 barstock is really no more expensive than 1095 or 1080/1084, and notably less expensive than O1.
 
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