70 lbs lateral force

deltablade

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I just read an article by Ed Fowler suggesting that battle blades are best if they can stand 70 lbs of lateral force,( emergency use without breaking, etc). Does anyone know how the USMC type Kabars, Ontarios,
would stand up in such a test?
 
Measured how, over how much length? a 3" 4mm thick blade can easily take that, an 8" 3mm blade maybe not. Length, thickness, grind, width, steel, they all factor in.
 
I just read an article by Ed Fowler suggesting that battle blades are best if they can stand 70 lbs of lateral force,( emergency use without breaking, etc). Does anyone know how the USMC type Kabars, Ontarios,
would stand up in such a test?

I've pryed with my KA-BAR 1217's and never had one break. I'm pretty sure I pass 70lbs easily. Give me some idea of what you are asking for, and I'll test mine out and post it up in the KA-BAR forum.

Moose
 
Ed want not real specific, just said using a vise and torque wrench, so I am guessing he would clamp the blade down around the tip in a vise, then put 70 lbs of lateral torque on the handle
 
The blade we tested is a little under 4 1/4 inches long. The front of the blade was placed about 1 1/4 inches into the vice, the ricasso and tang were in the clamp for the torque wrench. the blade flexed a little over a length of about 1 1/2 inches. Blade thickness about 3/16ths inch. Steel 52100 rate of reduction by forging over 90 points, multiple quench differentially hardened. This was a test blade forged and heat treated by me for our last seminar. I feel that 70 foot pounds is about the maximum a man can put on a blade in exigent circumstances when the adrenalin is flowing using his hands.

edited to add:
I was responding with another thread in mind. I feel you were referring to the article in Blade about combat knives. The most common source of failure I have seen when it comes to the use of knives is through lateral force. The purpose of the article was to emphasize the importance of lateral force when you are choosing a knife that you may have to depend upon absolutely when the chips are down. We have not tested all the knives available or suggested for use in survival situations. The only way you can know the potential for the knife you chose is to test it yourself.

I strongly suggest you know the limits of your knife before you find yourself in a wreck and must depend on your knife to meet challenges you may have not anticipated.

The only KA-Bar type USMC knives I have tested were WWII vintage and had been used very hard. One passed my tests, one did not.
I would not call this a Representative sample of what is available today. Also testing a used knife is not a valid test of what that knife could have done when it was new.
 
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Torque (in ft-lbs) is what you are after, not force (in pounds). Most any full grown male in the US can put 70 pounds of lateral force on a blade. Torque is the amount of force (lets say 70 pounds) times the length of the lever. In this case, the lever is a knife with about (in Ed's case) a 5 inch blade. Let's make some assumtions, since I've never actually seen one of Ed's knives in person. First, lets say that about 1 inch of blade is in a stump you want to pry apart, to get some dry wood for a fire (it's hypothetical, I know there are better ways). Now, let's assume the handle of Ed's knife is about 5 inches long. I don't really know about you or Ed's knives, but for me, this length provides a versatile and comfy handle. Now lets assume the effort you put into prying is concetrated on the center of the handle, 2.5 inches from the end. In reality, it will be distributed over however much of the handle you are gripping, but again, this is an example. We have a knife with an overall length of about 10 inches (5" blade + 5" handle). We lose one inch due to it being embedded in the stump, so we're down to 9" now. Your efforts are concentrated on a point 2.5 inches from the end of the handle, so 9 - 2.5 is a 6.5" lever. If you can get the leverage right, I have no doubt a grown man can put over 100 pound of force on the handle, and some will be able to get over 150, maybe 200 pounds. I've seen individuals put over 250 ft-lbs of torque on a bolt with a wrench about 14 inches long. That works out to nearly 215 pounds of force on the end of the wrench. These were strong iron workers, so lets assume you can get 150 pounds on the handle of the knife, unless you're exceptionally strong. Now we have 6.5 inches divided by 12 inches/foot, for a lever length of 0.54 feet. 0.54 feet times 150 pounds is over 80 ft-lbs (81.2). Longer knives give you longer levers, with the same amount of force, so you can get much higher torques. IMO, for a battle blade, you need to be able to resist considerably more than 70 ft-lbs, given that battle blades tend to have longer blades, ranging from 7" (USMC Kabar) to 9" plus (Busse Battel Mistress, BK9, Trailmaster, Loredo, etc.). This assumes you intend to use the knife for purposes that need lateral strength, such as prying open crates, etc. If not, get as much as you think you'll need. Sorry for the math. If I assume you can do it and you can't or won't, then you have no idea what I said. If I assume you can't and you can, some people get insulted. I may be done for either way.

PS: I always get sent to the quick reply window, but this is not what I'd consider a quick reply.:rolleyes:
 
It takes 255 lbs of force to break an average adult femur. May be these results need to be calibrated more carefully.
 
Where did you find the information on femurs? What direction was it loaded? Ithink its safe to say an average moderately athletic adult male could leg press 500 pounds or close to it. There isnt a rash of shattered femurs in weight rooms. In any case, a human can put a lot of force on the handle of a knife if they are in a position to use the large muscles of their legs and/or chest. The limit comes from how they are able to position their body and the handle design of the knife.
 
Where did you find the information on femurs? What direction was it loaded? Ithink its safe to say an average moderately athletic adult male could leg press 500 pounds or close to it. There isnt a rash of shattered femurs in weight rooms.
I assume pressure would be applied perpendicular to and in the middle of the femur. ;)
 
I think there is no need to turn somebody's opinion into precise science.
I guess the point is clear: the "battle blades" just get lots and lots of abuse being sometimes the only tool the soldier has at hand. So they do not have to be perfect cutters. Well, they do not even have to be good cutters. They do not have to be some fancy fighting knives. They must be cheap, good size but not too heavy, and be able to withstand that abuse. If they can not hold 70 lb applied in the most "inconvenient" way - they are likely to break at some point. And the figure itself is just from the top of the mind - like what USMC type Kabar and Ontario would withstand... :D
 
I'll see what I can scare up.

Thank you Mr. Fowler for the information, as well as the work you do.

I'm a big fan of yours.

Moose
 
Thank you gentlemen!
The force is applied to the blade via a toque wrench and is measured in foot pounds this is different than simply pounds as most realize. We test some "combat" knives that snapped in two at 15 foot pounds one foreign made one snapped before we could get a reading on the torque wrench. I don't want to mention any names since we have not tested them all and we lack a representative sample that would make our tests fair.

Our message is to the consumer and it is up to each individual to decide what he will accept. I can definitely state that 70 foot pounds of lateral force applied to a handle is more than enough for me.
 
Couple years ago I watched a video of someone doing one-handed pull-ups with a Falkniven placed between two pieces of lumber. Sure got my attention.Here's a link to how Fallkniven tests their knives for lateral breakage. BTW, one test knife, a Fallkniven A1, took 556 lb at 6 inches. At any rate, an interesting read.

http://www.fallkniven.com/en/breaktest
 
Couple years ago I watched a video of someone doing one-handed pull-ups with a Falkniven placed between two pieces of lumber. Sure got my attention.Here's a link to how Fallkniven tests their knives for lateral breakage. BTW, one test knife, a Fallkniven A1, took 556 lb at 6 inches. At any rate, an interesting read.

http://www.fallkniven.com/en/breaktest

Thanks for the reference. Seems like a well thought out test method and one which is repeatable.
 
Jebus, thats a lot. I may have to look into fallkniven a little more.
 
I feel that 70 foot pounds is about the maximum a man can put on a blade in exigent circumstances when the adrenalin is flowing using his hands.

Mr. Fowler, is this something you measured in your tests? I understand about the flex tests with the torque wrench, but is the 70 lb. number something you were able to measure otherwise?
 
When we put on a seminar one of the coaches forges and heat treats a blade as part of our teaching. The blade is then tested for edge flex and cut, then a student is chosen to flex the blade repeatedly in a vice with a torque wrench attached in the ricasso area. So far all agree that 70 foot pounds is more force than can be put on a knife using your hands on the handle area. We have never had a blade break completely in two pieces, they are edge hardened and simply flex to 90 degrees and back again until the edge cracks. The user would have plenty of warning that he is exceeding the lateral strength of the blade. We and our students have tried with our hands on the tang area and not been able to achieve a set in the blade.

I can stand on a handle with the blade in a vice and they do not take a set,I weigh 192 lbs today.

Is this scientific -no, just an excursion in the physiology of the human body and the resolution of component forces that a knife may need to face, is it convincing to us - yes. I invite each who wants to know to give it a try on knives of their choice and report their findings.

We can easily make them stronger by leaving them thicker, but through our testing 70 foot pounds is felt to be enough. Our last test blade is about 4 1/4 inches long, a little less than 3/16 inches thick and about one inch deep in the area of the flex. The blade is convex ground, differently hardened and tempered back at 388 f. There are no stress raisers in the blade to weaken it.

I hope this answers your question.
 
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