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940 comparison: M4 vs s90v???
- Thread starter db_sharply
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Again, people are saying s90v is hard to sharpen and talking about the tenacious burr it forms. This, at least for me, is simply not true at all. My 940-1 had one of the poorer BM edges. It was profiled to my liking making the bevel twice as wide. Despite all this grinding and sharpening, the burr never grew large. I reprofiled on the DMT XC and finished on the DMT C. There was a tiny burr left that my strops didn't touch. Just a few passes on 2000 grit wet/dry sandpaper and it would whittle hair, shave, cleanly slice toilet paper... My point is, there are MANY people here with more sharpening experience and WAY more expensive toys than me and I can get s90v sharp easily.
I love forums for the absolute wealth of knowledge and sense of community, but information is usually based on opinion and rumor. Misinformation, or incorrect conclusions linger forever. Example, the guy quoting the hardness incorrectly in this post. I really only take the advice a few members give as gold, others are just fun and entertaining to read and think about. Ankerson did his 940-1 and said it was EASY and FAST to sharpen on basic cheap tools. "Took me about 10 mins total time reprofiling and sharpening with 320 grit SIC and finishing off with 400 grit SIC"
I love forums for the absolute wealth of knowledge and sense of community, but information is usually based on opinion and rumor. Misinformation, or incorrect conclusions linger forever. Example, the guy quoting the hardness incorrectly in this post. I really only take the advice a few members give as gold, others are just fun and entertaining to read and think about. Ankerson did his 940-1 and said it was EASY and FAST to sharpen on basic cheap tools. "Took me about 10 mins total time reprofiling and sharpening with 320 grit SIC and finishing off with 400 grit SIC"
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I recognize that, but he/she has the option to purchase the membership on BF and do so (and there is also Benchmade's forum). I figured I would point this option out because it could potentially save them money. There may even be people who have posted in the For Trade section that have a 940-1 and are currently looking to trade for another Benchmade. With the size and diversity of this forum, I imagine it could probably be utilized to bring a desirable outcome, and I think the cost of a membership here could actually save money over selling the 940-121 elsewhere and then purchasing a 940-1 new from a retailer. Trades on forums like this often yield great values and outcomes 
I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but I don't think Ankerson or yourself are very good judges to gauge how hard sharpening a steel is or isn't. You guys have a wealth of knowledge, but are at a skill level that may not do a great job at representing the average user's experience when it comes to upkeep. I find S90V difficult to sharpen and more difficult than most of the other steels I have knives in. It's worth noting that I have found my biggest mistake is simply not spending enough time on steels with higher wear resistance and moving through the stones too quickly. So at least from my own experience, I find S90V to be a relatively long process to sharpen. It's also worth noting that as I become more competent with the EdgePro that I find steels like S90V easier to sharpen. Ankerson's knowledge on steels and edge geometry is simply mind-blowing...but something he finds easy to sharpen may not be thought of easy by others. There are posts made by people who own S90V knives that have noted first-hand experiences on it being difficult to sharpen.
Spyderco's S90V Military is probably the most difficult knife I have ever sharpened, next to a 110V Kershaw with a slight recurve, and Spyderco's original solid ZDP-189. (I've never sharpened 125V and don't ask me why but Spyderco's 110V Manix I find pretty easy to sharpen.) At least from my own experience, I find sharpening S90V to be a long process and much longer than M390.
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You didn't sound like a jerk at all. I thought you represented your opinion very respectfully. That's what we do here, share our opinions. Please, don't put me anywhere near Ankerson in sharpening skill. I have about three years experience free handing on DMT's and sand paper. We all agree steels like s90v do take longer to sharpen. But, since you don't have to sharpen as often the total sharpening time is about the same. All it takes is some SiC or diamonds or even good sand paper and time. Like you said, be sure to apex on the lowest grit and refine from there. Don't think I only like "super steels" though. Vg10 is fantastic and 154cm has never let me down. With good technique and decent equipment, any steel will get where you want it soon enough. I just wanted to say all this so someone doesn't read the opinions about s90v and avoid it thinking it's too difficult to work with.
Ankerson
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I think most of the issues are that people tend to over think things too much, and it doesn't really help that some people tend to over complicate things on the forums when they describe sharpening or on YT... When I can do the same thing in seconds.....
The time consuming part of S90V would be reprofiling to what the owner would want it to be, but once the bevel is set S90V is easy to sharpen with simple tools like a Sharpmaker, ceramic rod or a strop loaded with SIC.
Now if a person wants bench stones then the best choice would be Silicon Carbide, Norton stones would be the top choice, the 8" x 3" stones are nice.
Diamonds? Really?.....
Why? They really aren't needed for any steel that I have ever seen..... And you can't put any real pressure on them or the blade will scrape the diamonds right off the stone over time... So they actually take longer than SIC would...
So it's really defeating the purpose in the end, that's unless people like to spend a lot longer doing the same thing using stones that cost 3X or more than the Norton SIC stones do....
Sure I do use the Edge Pro, but that's mainly for reprofiling and I use SIC stones on it, makes things extremely fast.... I can do the same thing free hand, but the EP is faster and more accurate for the testing that I do.
For touch ups it's ceramics, usually a rod or the 704 profile set, and it only takes seconds and the steel doesn't matter....
The other week I was over another Forum members house and was showing him exactly how easy things really can be.... ON HIS KNIVES......
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I agree with you that everyone over complicates it and I believe that is because folks don't really understand how simple it CAN be.
With that said, I only use diamond for CPM-M4. I use a Trend stone in two grits. You can time me if you want Ank, I swear it takes me less than 2 minutes from touch up hone, to hanging strop, to pocket. I prefer the diamond stone I use over the stones you mentioned due to the actual shape of the diamonds. They are triangular and under 100x microscope you can see how much better the grit patterns are and especially how much sharper the teeth of micro serrations come out.
I think I am going to go back to just using my knives now. Less talk more using
BTW, love your testing my friend, never stop!
With that said, I only use diamond for CPM-M4. I use a Trend stone in two grits. You can time me if you want Ank, I swear it takes me less than 2 minutes from touch up hone, to hanging strop, to pocket. I prefer the diamond stone I use over the stones you mentioned due to the actual shape of the diamonds. They are triangular and under 100x microscope you can see how much better the grit patterns are and especially how much sharper the teeth of micro serrations come out.
I think I am going to go back to just using my knives now. Less talk more using
BTW, love your testing my friend, never stop!
Ankerson
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I agree with you that everyone over complicates it and I believe that is because folks don't really understand how simple it CAN be.
With that said, I only use diamond for CPM-M4. I use a Trend stone in two grits. You can time me if you want Ank, I swear it takes me less than 2 minutes from touch up hone, to hanging strop, to pocket. I prefer the diamond stone I use over the stones you mentioned due to the actual shape of the diamonds. They are triangular and under 100x microscope you can see how much better the grit patterns are and especially how much sharper the teeth of micro serrations come out.
I think I am going to go back to just using my knives now. Less talk more using
BTW, love your testing my friend, never stop!
I do the same thing with ceramics, except I don't have to strop it so it's like 10 seconds, maybe 15 seconds and I am done.
IF I use the strop alone it's about the same amount of time, still under a min usually... :thumbup:
And yes it can be ridiculously easy...
Ankerson
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Yeah, I am with you. I only have to go back to hone once the micro serrations have smoothed into a straight edge from maintenance strop
Keep up the great work my friend
Thanks, Still going...
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I agree that partial comment saying "S90V is difficult to sharpen" is misleading. We all should mention the source of our knowledge will avoid our confusion.
It sounds that you are more experienced than average forum member, but again that is your experience and take from your sharpening. Back to the comment. May be that person was using hand me down glazed stone who just finished sharpening carbon steel blade, and then tried S90V.
I uses diamond, because I don't put much pressure on stones. I can feel the minute vibrations gliding against the blade. (I lock the blade and then run small diamond fine sharpening plate. It is definitely evident that with same grit of diamond, I can tell the difference between 154cm, D2, S30v, S110v, etc.
It is not end all, but after using diamond sharpener I felt like using difference between cutting stake with scalpel versus butter knife.
For the disclaimer may be we should post YMMV at the end.
As for referring to "the guy who misquoted", I referred BKC's site. JNewell has seem post by BKC member to confirm the HRC Since not many of us does actual Rockwell hardness test (may be Jim Ankerson does himself
), I can only state the source. For the knowledge of metallurgy, what can I tell you. DO you need to see my diploma? Nothing against Gold member, but having opinion that "only listen to Gold member" is just as misleading as quoting web page that is mislabeled. Just because the individual has decided to stay "regular registered user" does not mean know the information an less. I am not debating the merit of contributing money to run the forum, but validity of knowledge based on membership is not an accurate assessment.
So, again " Your mileage may vary..."
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As for referring to "the guy who misquoted", I referred BKC's site. JNewell has seem post by BKC member to confirm the HRC Since not many of us does actual Rockwell hardness test (may be Jim Ankerson does himself
The correct hardness for the 940-1 is right on the BKC website here: http://www.benchmade.com/products/940
That this is the correct figure was confirmed by a Benchmade rep in a thread that several people here posted in, so it's not like you have to be part of the NSA to get this info...
Ankerson
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That or a crap stone, notice I didn't say cheap because there is a difference because quality SIC stones aren't very expensive, but people aren't going to find the good ones at Wally World....
With the higher alloy steels the stones will make a difference, but that's doesn't mean people have to spend a fortune on them either, they just have to get the right ones that WORK....
So if somebody says S90V is hard to sharpen I ask two simple questions...
1. Compared to what?
2. What are they using to sharpen with?
No it's not going to be like sharpening 1095 or AUS-8 or something, but it's not really all that different than S30V using the right stones, should take the same amount of time in general, and that's if you let it get dull....
Touch ups using the right stones should take no longer than any other steel, a few passes and that's it... Done.....
And this is from someone who uses S90V and S110V on a daily basis and has for years.... Not that big of a deal, not really if one keeps it simple...
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Ank is more experienced, but what he is trying to explain, as I have tried to before as well, is sharpening is no mystery that takes decades to uncover. Take from his experience, and mine if you will, that it is actually very quick and easy. I know it took me years to realize, don't take as long as me
I hope this helps.
All we are doing here is cutting a fresh apex and keeping as little burr from forming, and removing any that does and refining microserrations in the process. Steel gets harder abrasive must get harder.
I hope this helps.
All we are doing here is cutting a fresh apex and keeping as little burr from forming, and removing any that does and refining microserrations in the process. Steel gets harder abrasive must get harder.
Ankerson
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Ank is more experienced, but what he is trying to explain, as I have tried to before as well, is sharpening is no mystery that takes decades to uncover. Take from his experience, and mine if you will, that it is actually very quick and easy. I know it took me years to realize, don't take as long as me
I hope this helps.
All we are doing here is cutting a fresh apex and keeping as little burr from forming, and removing any that does and refining microserrations in the process. Steel gets harder abrasive must get harder.
I like a little bur to form then I just remove it, very quick and easy..... Or with the ceramic rod I just eyeball it and make a few passes on each side, check the bur if there is any remove it and done..... NEXT.....
Ankerson
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I've been hand sharpening on and off on a bench stone for over a decade now and it's not a skill I have ever been able to get very good at. I admire people who can do it as it's truly its own art form. I ultimately gave up and got an Edge Pro Apex, which I think I am progressively getting better at and probably in another few years I will feel more confident about sharpening S90V and some of the newer kitchen steels that are claiming hardness levels at 65-67+. I've been sharpening a lot of Blue #2 and Super Blue as of late, so I think working more with that is helping me get better at steels with more wear resistance. Before the EP, I also had a SharpMaker.
VG-10 is one of my favorite steels as well. It can fulfill roles from tough folders to higher hardness kitchen knives to a great material for a laminated blade, plus it is a steel I have always found super easy to sharpen.
At least to me, the most frustrating thing about sharpening is that it is a progressive skill, there is a learning curve with knives with blade shapes/geometry that are different, and different steels have somewhat different characteristics (for example, I find D2 and ELMAX seem to excel with an edge that has a slightly rougher/toothy finish, where as M390 likes as much polish as possible, and with my M390 blades I saw an immediate improvement in performance with a Chosera 10K that not every other steel saw such a pronounced gain.) Overall it is a longer process and at least for me the only way I have succeeded has been through failure (in this case, failure generally being a knife that has a crappy edge, or screwing the edge up a point where I have to do more work to correct my first (or second, third, etc.) attempt.) It's probably partially my 'bigger, faster, and NOW!' mindset that makes me wish mastering sharpening was a faster process, which is strongly contrasted by what I have observed to be learning process that never really has an end point!
My outlook on certain steels often called "super steels" has certainly changed since coming to this forum (and buying an EdgePro). It seems that almost any steel can be upkeep by any user if they are OK with the learning, the longer time investment that wear resistant steels sometimes have on work beyond touchups, and have the right materials (with the "right" ones fitting many different products of different styles at different prices). That makes super steels a lot less daunting and at least for me has historically caused me to have reservations with some of these steels.
I only use diamonds for ceramics. Ben Dale told me more or less that many diamond products wear at an accelerated rate, and are unnecessary aggressive for most usage (that portion applying to the EdgePro offerings). And of course they are also usually expensive. I probably use the silicone carbide 120 grit EP stone once or twice for every 100 or more times I use stones 1000 & and up. When I stated sharpening with a SharpMaker, I purchased the diamond rods and upon using them a few times, I realized that I was wearing them heavily and not using them in appropriate situations (the medium stone would have been as effective and reduced time by not requiring the extra corse step and not roughing up the edge so much that you need to spend forever on the next stone to fix this.)
I've not ever been able to master hand sharpening. I think some of that is because my hands aren't all that stable and sometimes they tend to shake lightly (neurological thing).
I can't apply my own experience to speak on behalf of others, but for me the learning curve has been a little different.
Compared to where I was at my own abilities not too long ago, I agree sharpening in some cases CAN be easy, anyone can get reasonably good at it if I can, but I don't think it is necessarily simple (at least at first) and I don't think it is a very fast process. For me, it has been a relatively long process of continual learning, and I believe that to some degree it is like marksmanship in that it is a learning process that never really ends.
Just reading much of the wealth of information here takes a while because there is so much good information, and I like to reread things a few times to soak it in, and review again as I go. One thing I sometimes do is set my laptop next to my EP and read as I go if trying something different (I did that the first time I did a microbevel, for example). If I am feeling anal, I'll sometimes take magnified images of the edge through a loupe, and upload them on my laptop to examine what I did well and what needs to improve (and over time determine if I have improved). After sharpening, I will sometimes take videos of sharpness demonstrations so I can track where I started at, where I am now, how much I am improving over time, and what needs to improve more.
I imagine that sounds a little insane and, to many, way too over-complicated, but that is what has worked best for me personally. I don't think I would be where I am with the EP without doing this, and I certainly would not be where I am at on the EP without Ben Dale and the Members on Forums like this.