A-2 tool steel vs. 154cm steel question

jbass

jbass

Joined
Dec 26, 2009
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Would A-2 tool steel or 154cm steel be best for a long bladed knife (7-9 inches) that will be used for camp chores, hunting, bushcrafting, etc.? Thanks.
 
A2 is very much tougher. 154cm will have much more corrosion resistance and greater wear resistance. If you value toughness the A2 is the way to go. If you have to have corrosion resistance of a stainless steel at the cost of lower toughness then 154cm is for you. Here are some charts to compare values visually. Niagara is a company that provides steels in larger type batches to production companies and some custom makers. They are good folks and IIRC supporters of Bladeforums.http://www.nsm-ny.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=page.display&page_id=27
 
A2 is probably the superior steel if you are looking for a fixed blade to use hard. It's edge retention is not fantastic, but as noted it is a tough steel and it is pretty easy to field sharpen. Chances are an A2 blade will be coated by the maker, and if not you will want to coat it or treat it with something to prevent rust. My favorite feature of my A2 blades is without doubt the ease in sharpening as I find it a very easy steel to sharpen even after harder usage which causes damage to the edge. For a knife that sees frequent and hard usage, that ease of upkeep to me is a really big plus. Many people prefer this steel to others for hard-use knifes because it is so tough and it is generally a very good value.

If you like 154CM, IMHO CPM-154 is a much better option and there are custom makers pushing CPM-154 blades to have hella good edge retention with equally good toughness, plus with very good corrosion resistance. Where I don't think 154CM is all that special, I think CPM-154 is just exceptional with a good heat treatment.
 
A2 by far. A2 kicks total ass. It is one of my favorite steels. Actually it is tied with INFI for my favorite steel. I have compared the two with tons of different steels from tons of different makers/manufacturers, and with the way they performed they wound up being my absolute favorites.

A2 tool steel is very tough, will take a screaming sharp edge and hold it for a long, long time. It's not hard to resharpen either. It is an ideal steel for larger blades.
 
shqxk said:
A2 will be tougher and also hold an edge longer than 154cm.
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In what fantasy world will that happen?

A2 is tougher, great steel for larger knives that will see rough use.....

But there is no way it will hold an edge longer than 154CM.... The alloy content just isn't there for that to happen...
 
I have a custom from gimmejr in A2 and it is great! I have only had to strop it a few times to keep it freaky sharp. I was a huge 01 and D2 fan until this knife in A2!
I haven't had any rust issues yet, but I wipe it with Break Free after use.
 
Ankerson said:
In what fantasy world will that happen?

A2 is tougher, great steel for larger knives that will see rough use.....

But there is no way it will hold an edge longer than 154CM.... The alloy content just isn't there for that to happen...
Click to expand...

Both steel has very similar carbon content, at the same hardness the lower chromium in A2 will likely to produce the more complete plate martensite structure while the high chromium steel like 154cm will have much more chromium carbide and also the remained chromium both will have a negative influence on the strength and toughness of steel structure. Beside wear resistance, strength and toughness is the fundamental of edge retention, it is actually the durability of the smallest part of the edge. You also need to know the fact than the higher alloy steel will suffer more about the retained austenite problem, the method like cryo can just reduce but can not completely eliminate it.

This is the reason why the lower alloy steel like W2 or 52100 can perform better as a knife blade than many other stainless with much higher alloy. The word edge retention is not as simple as you said. Lower alloy = lower edge retention is just a plain misunderstanding.

English is not my first language so its quite hard for me to explain anything metallurgy.
 
shqxk said:
Both steel has very similar carbon content, at the same hardness the lower chromium in A2 will likely to produce the more complete plate martensite structure while the high chromium steel like 154cm will have much more chromium carbide and also the remained chromium both will have a negative influence on the strength and toughness of steel structure. Beside wear resistance, strength and toughness is the fundamental of edge retention, it is actually the durability of the smallest part of the edge. You also need to know the fact than the higher alloy steel will suffer more about the retained austenite problem, the method like cryo can just reduce but can not completely eliminate it.

This is the reason why the lower alloy steel like W2 or 52100 can perform better as a knife blade than many other stainless with much higher alloy. The word edge retention is not as simple as you said. Lower alloy = lower edge retention is just a plain misunderstanding.

English is not my first language so its quite hard for me to explain anything metallurgy.
Click to expand...

Per Phil Wilson and Crucible Steel, BOTH A-2 and 154CM require cryo to reduce retained austenite from >20% to <5%, NIETHER is likely to produce complete martensite without it.

http://www.seamountknifeworks.com/articles/154cm_heat_treatment.pdf
http://www.crucible.com/eselector/general/generalpart2.html

Why would the free chromium have an appreciable impact on toughness?
At what hardness and geometry and for what tasks do you compare W2 and 52100 to what stainless steel alloy? Without being specific about these things, it is hard to understand what comparison is being made...
 
I would think it would partly depend on how thick the blade was at the spine. If you wanted a thin blade to enhance cutting efficiency, I would think the extra toughness A2 offers would come in quite handy. On the other hand, if you want a bruiser that's 3/16" or even 1/4" thick, then I would take the improved corrosion and wear resistance of 154cm as it'll be more than tough enough if there's that much of it.
 
shqxk said:
Both steel has very similar carbon content, at the same hardness the lower chromium in A2 will likely to produce the more complete plate martensite structure while the high chromium steel like 154cm will have much more chromium carbide and also the remained chromium both will have a negative influence on the strength and toughness of steel structure. Beside wear resistance, strength and toughness is the fundamental of edge retention, it is actually the durability of the smallest part of the edge. You also need to know the fact than the higher alloy steel will suffer more about the retained austenite problem, the method like cryo can just reduce but can not completely eliminate it.

This is the reason why the lower alloy steel like W2 or 52100 can perform better as a knife blade than many other stainless with much higher alloy. The word edge retention is not as simple as you said. Lower alloy = lower edge retention is just a plain misunderstanding.

English is not my first language so its quite hard for me to explain anything metallurgy.
Click to expand...

Most of the A2 I have used has given me probably the lowest performance in the edge retention category? Is that because most of the A2 I have used has not been hardened as aggressively as 154 I have used since A2 I've used more on fixed blades and 154 on folders? But isn't the standard hardness most people take A2 up to still around 55-57, give or take?
 
A2 has been my go to for a knife that will see hard use.I've made knives out of it for over 20 years suggest a sub zero quench and 3 tempers.rc between 59 t0 61 on the c scale.I've got a knife I made to abuse for myself. Its been thru 12 whitetail deer and counting .Still hasn't needed touched back up.
 
AntDog said:
LOL! wut?

ajajajajajajajajaja
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Yeah, mine have generally been in the hardness category of 55-57 and I do not know if that is unusually soft for A2, but my usage has not been defined by extreme edge retention. With that said, I've not used a ton of A2 from custom makers pushing heat treatments to new levels. My usage has been defined by a very easy knife to sharpen, and one that is exceptionally tough despite me not struggling to touch up.
 
Sorry duders, but A2 is very tough and has excellent edge retention. Period. Real world usage proven.

Alloy content? Who gives a damn about that? What difference does it make in this case? All the alloy content of 154CM does is make it more stainless, not make it hold an edge longer.

I have used A2 head to head with 154CM and tons of other steels and not many of them can hold a candle to A2. Ya know, there's a reason Busse used A2 exclusively before they switched to INFI. It is that good. A looooong while back I had an original straight handled steel heart in A2 and it was an excellent knife in every respect. I never should have sold it.
 
AntDog said:
Sorry duders, but A2 is very tough and has excellent edge retention. Period. Real world usage proven.

Alloy content? Who gives a damn about that? What difference does it make in this case? All the alloy content of 154CM does is make it more stainless, not make it hold an edge longer.

I have used A2 head to head with 154CM and tons of other steels and not many of them can hold a candle to A2. Ya know, there's a reason Busse used A2 exclusively before they switched to INFI. It is that good. A looooong while back I had an original straight handled steel heart in A2 and it was an excellent knife in every respect. I never should have sold it.
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I have to agree here, I made a few knives from A2 @61rc and the edge retention is excellent! Very tough and holds a keen edge for me.
 
In my opinion if you are planning to get a chopper go A2.

If you are planning for minimal chopping go 154cm.
 
Thanks for your opinions, everyone. Wanted to let you all know that I was reading and considering your comments.
 
AntDog said:
Sorry duders, but A2 is very tough and has excellent edge retention. Period. Real world usage proven.

Alloy content? Who gives a damn about that? What difference does it make in this case? All the alloy content of 154CM does is make it more stainless, not make it hold an edge longer.

I have used A2 head to head with 154CM and tons of other steels and not many of them can hold a candle to A2. Ya know, there's a reason Busse used A2 exclusively before they switched to INFI. It is that good. A looooong while back I had an original straight handled steel heart in A2 and it was an excellent knife in every respect. I never should have sold it.
Click to expand...


The facts are that A2 doesn't have the wear resistance that 154CM does, that is real world and not perception...

A2 has less wear resistance than D2....... Not perception....

Alloy content? Who gives a damn about that? What difference does it make in this case? All the alloy content of 154CM does is make it more stainless, not make it hold an edge longer.
Click to expand...

You are so far off here that you really have no clue what you are talking about at all.

You really need to do a lot more research and one heck of a lot less posting..... I have not seen this much misinformation in one thread in awhile.....

Here is the A2 data sheet..... https://www.crucible.com/PDFs//DataSheets2010/dsA2v12010.pdf

And the comparison graph of A2 vs 154CM Alloy content: http://zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=A2, 154cm&hrn=1&gm=0
 
Last edited:
How does A2 compare with some other steels like O1, M4, 3V, 52100? (toughness and edge holding)
 
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