A-2 tool steel vs. 154cm steel question

AntDog said:
Sorry duders, but A2 is very tough and has excellent edge retention. Period. Real world usage proven.

Alloy content? Who gives a damn about that? What difference does it make in this case? All the alloy content of 154CM does is make it more stainless, not make it hold an edge longer.

I have used A2 head to head with 154CM and tons of other steels and not many of them can hold a candle to A2. Ya know, there's a reason Busse used A2 exclusively before they switched to INFI. It is that good. A looooong while back I had an original straight handled steel heart in A2 and it was an excellent knife in every respect. I never should have sold it.
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I disagree completely. I could be wrong, so here's why I disagree...

The A2 I've personally used does not give anywhere near the same edge retention of 154CM although I've never used A2 hardened to 61 HRC+. It's tough stuff and performs well, but I have knives in many other steels which have much more edge retention (and usually much less toughness).

Busse most likely used A2 before INFI for the same reason that they use INFI and the same reason many fixed blades are made in CPM-3V and A2: it's tough steel that can withstand usage that most other steels cannot, and that trait is a great match for a larger fixed blade that will see harder usage as edge retention takes a back seat in that sort of application. And despite being tough as hell, it's still not a complete nightmare to field sharpen.

If edge retention is the trait someone desires the most in a knife, A2 is probably not the best option in a world where there are many other steels with improved edge retention/wear resistance, and many custom makers whom offer various steels to match to individual needs/usage/preferences.

As for the alloy content, given different additives can affect wear resistance, edge retention, toughness, shock resistance, the ability to withstand lateral forces that a fixed blade may see, and of course ease of upkeep (in addition to corrosion resistance), I think it applies both here and elsewhere? While not a metal expert, IIRC 154 has silicone added, which increases wear resistance, for example. Like the heat treatment, wouldn't the composition be as important a factor as any in terms of how well the steel matches the usage it will see?



While it is difficult to quantify steel performance and while the below shows there is some variation in ranking, there seems to be a pretty big consensus that A2 has fantastic toughness but lesser edge retention to many other cutlery steels. The A2 you may have used may outperform the 154CM and everything else you have used by a land slide, but A2 is generally not seen as a class-leader in edge retention/wear resistance which may illustrate why the general consensus is that 154CM will have better edge retention than A2 with other things such as edge geometry being equal...

From Crucible on wear resistance
carbidecontentwearv2.gif



Bark River Steels-A2 and 154CM
I think we can say that the heat treatment for all of these steels is a good treatment given Bark River Knives' reputation
steel-chart-2010.gif


http://www.crystalfallstradingcompany.com/barkriverknives-steels.php
A-2: This steel is tougher than all of the above and holds it's edge longer because of the larger amount of Molybdenum. The Moly makes it more abrasion resistant than any of the above steels without compromising toughness. It is also fine grained

Carbon: 1.1%
Chromium: 5.5%
Vanadium: .5%
Molybdenum:1.4%
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154 CM: Is more abrasion resistance than A-2, but less toughness. It has a bit less abrasion resistance as D-2. With Bark River's heat treatment it is about as tough as D-2. 154CM is more stain resistant than either A-2 or D-2 and that is it's largest asset.
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From Hudson
charts-basic-knife-steel.jpg



From Relentless
Relentless_Knives_Steel_chart.jpg



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(independent testing of both A2 and 154CM that has been posted on this forum also seems to indicate the above that 154 is generally going to give better edge retention than A2 [with significantly less toughness, of course])

Beyond everything else, this shows that A2, 154CM, and any steel for that matter isn't a golden standard in that which steel that is "best" will depend on the usage the knife will see, and the preferences of the user. In this specific case, I dare say the question that lies here is "do you want the toughness of A2, or the edge retention and corrosion resistance of 154CM?" To my personally, A2 seems like the best choice with the stated use and the fact that this is going on a larger fixed blade in which toughness is generally more important than edge retention here.
 
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Do you guys use knives or look at charts all day? My real usage tells me what I personally know.

If you really want test it take two choppers, same design, same geometry, etc. One made from A2 one 154CM. Go chop. The stainless blade has a better chance of breaking, cracking, chipping, etc. There is a reason it is usually reserved for folders. It might hold an edge longer, maybe, but I really doubt it. A2 holds an edge an unbelievably long time. Edge retention won't help you when your edge is in 2 pieces.

The fact remains that A2 is far better for large fixed blades. It takes a screaming sharp edge, holds it a long time, and is very tough/shock resistant.
 
AntDog said:
Do you guys use knives or look at charts all day? My real usage tells me what I personally know.

If you really want test it take two choppers, same design, same geometry, etc. One made from A2 one 154CM. Go chop. The stainless blade has a better chance of breaking, cracking, chipping, etc. There is a reason it is usually reserved for folders. It might hold an edge longer, maybe, but I really doubt it. A2 holds an edge an unbelievably long time. Edge retention won't help you when your edge is in 2 pieces.

The fact remains that A2 is far better for large fixed blades. It takes a screaming sharp edge, holds it a long time, and is very tough/shock resistant.
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As noted in my last post, information coming from knife makers, steel manufacturers, and my personal experience indicate that A2 does not have the edge retention and wear resistance of 154CM. I recognize that edge geometry will impact performance greatly if one knife has excellent design and the other not-so-much.

I don't think anyone in this thread has said the 154CM has remotely near the toughness of A2 or that A2 is not a good choice for a fixed blade. At least what I posted pertained to the differences in the edge retention of the knives.

In most cases, I would agree A2 is a better choice for a fixed blade, especially larger ones that will see things such as chopping/splitting/batoning. But as it pertains to the OP, their intended usage may affect desired traits that could conceivably make A2, 154CM, or some completely different steel best for them. I have been told by many custom makers that a major reason they often offer the same or similar knives in a variety of different steels are due to the different needs and preferences of their customers. On my Bark River, CPM-154 was the best steel for me. For others, one of the many different steels Bark River offers may be a better match for them.
 
pnsxyr said:
As noted in my last post, information coming from knife makers, steel manufacturers, and my personal experience indicate that A2 does not have the edge retention and wear resistance of 154CM. I recognize that edge geometry will impact performance greatly if one knife has excellent design and the other not-so-much.

I don't think anyone in this thread has said the 154CM has remotely near the toughness of A2 or that A2 is not a good choice for a fixed blade. At least what I posted pertained to the differences in the edge retention of the knives.

In most cases, I would agree A2 is a better choice for a fixed blade, especially larger ones that will see things such as chopping/splitting/batoning. But as it pertains to the OP, their intended usage may affect desired traits that could conceivably make A2, 154CM, or some completely different steel best for them. I have been told by many custom makers that a major reason they often offer the same or similar knives in a variety of different steels are due to the different needs and preferences of their customers. On my Bark River, CPM-154 was the best steel for me. For others, one of the many different steels Bark River offers may be a better match for them.
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Not sure who would make a chopper out of 154CM.....

It makes great kitchen knives, fillet knives and hunting, skinning knives though.
 
Ankerson said:
Not sure who would make a chopper out of 154CM.....

It makes great kitchen knives, fillet knives and hunting, skinning knives though.
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No idea who would, but if that's what floats someone's boat for whatever preferences they may have, more power to them :cool:
(personally if I got a fixed blade in 154, it would be in CPM-154 which I have on general usage medium FBs and they perform well, but that's me personally)


I once sold a knife to a customer because she thought that she looked prettier in the reflection from that particular knife versus all other knives in the store...
 
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