A Bit Disenchanted With CPM 440V

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Mar 28, 2001
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I am not sure I like this stuff as well as most people seem to. I have never had trouble getting the kind of edge I like on any knife like I am having with my Kershaw Boa in 440V. I have DMT hones, a Sharpmaker, etc. but I am just not happy with the kind of edges I am getting. I can put a serviceable edge on it that cuts pretty well and lasts a long time, but the razor keen edge I prefer seems to be eluding me. Is this just a characteristic of this steel, or am I doing something wrong? I used to think I was pretty good at putting an edge on a knife, but not on this knife. I get an agressive cutting edge, so I guess I shouldn't complain, but it just doesn't feel as sharp or cut as smoothly on some materials as most of my other knives. I like the knife, I am just frustrated trying to get the edge I like.
 
I only own 2 production knives with CPM 440V steel but they have not needed sharpening yet, but I understand they are tough to sharpen. Are you using a coarse diamond hone?
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Coonskinner:
I can put a serviceable edge on it that cuts pretty well and lasts a long time, but the razor keen edge I prefer seems to be eluding me. Is this just a characteristic of this steel, or am I doing something wrong?</font>
I did put razor or scarry whatever sharp edge on Kershaw BOA 440V. It would shave in w/o irritating the skin, in both directions.
However later I've learned that for that particular alloy this is not the best thing to do. Wouldn't hold the edge. I've never checked this though, since that BOA is not my user or edc, never used it since then, just sits in the box.
Overall it's doable, sortta troublesome, and quite questionable, whether it's worth it or not.
P.S. For stats - I was using the Edge-Pro.



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Possibly the best production edge I've got is on a Spyderco 440V Native plainedge. Acknowledged as a razor by no less than my barber, Giuseppe "Pino" Cisternino. (No, he didn't shave me with it...)
 
I have had exactly the same problem. I think it is an inherent trait of the steel. The grabby/razor edge is just so hard to get with this steel.

For example, with a total angle of 30 degrees, my Military feels quite sharp (polished edge on a Spyderco Ultra Fine Stone.) and it shaves hair fairly well.

However using a steel like ATS-34/55 and others I get a better shaving performance with an inclusive angle of 40 degrees using the white sharpmaker sticks only. When I thin the edge down to 15/15=30 and use the UFStone the results are very scary!

I touched up my LCC D/A (154CM) the other day using the UFS at 40 degrees, the result is a push shave edge, hair poping sharp.

Hours spent with 3 different blades in CPM 440V show me the same result every time. You get a good sharp edge, that does not 'feel' as sharp as it is and won't shave amazingly well.

If I had to guess, it is the Vanadium content that is causing the problem. If I were to use a DMT stone, I think I would see a more pronounced result for the edge feeling sharp. I think the ceramic stones are polishing the Vanadium carbides rather than agressivly cutting them. I bet if you looked at the edge under a microscope, you would see where the 'matrix' holding the Vanadium carbides had been worn away/sharpened away, and little 'teeth' of Vanadium carbides exposed. I think this gives 440V its great toothy cutting power, but explains why it won't shave very well.

Another factor is that a shaving edge requires a slight 'wire edge' to shave cleanly, once this folds or breaks away the knife will still be sharp (as long as it is a tiny shaving wire edge and not a burr). However this shaving burr just seems impossible to form for me. I either get a perfectly symetrical edge or an edge with a burr. If I keep the edge with the burr, it shaves great on that one side of the blade, but when it breaks away the knife goes very dull (as expected). CPM 440V then is not the steel to use for a 'true' hair popping/shaving edge. I know some people have suggested they get just this, but I would have to disagree and point to the sort of edge I get on a 'normal' steel vs this stuff.

You might also blame the 'weird' nature of the Particle Metalurgy effect, that is used to form this steel. It is a relativly new material and you can't expect such a high concentration of substances not to have a 'weird' effect on this 'steel' is it steel? It has more than 2% Carbon after all!

All this gives us a great steel for holding an edge and very reasonable rust resistance.

If the bug bear is that it is not the 'steel' for a straight razor, but takes an agressive cutting edge, heck I will take that and bank it!

I am sure I am wrong, but I can only go from my few years sharpening experience. Hope it helps!

------------------
Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gator97:
Originally posted by Coonskinner:
I can put a serviceable edge on it that cuts pretty well and lasts a long time, but the razor keen edge I prefer seems to be eluding me. Is this just a characteristic of this steel, or am I doing something wrong?</font>
I did put razor or scarry whatever sharp edge on Kershaw BOA 440V. It would shave in w/o irritating the skin, in both directions.
However later I've learned that for that particular alloy this is not the best thing to do. Wouldn't hold the edge. I've never checked this though, since that BOA is not my user or edc, never used it since then, just sits in the box.
Overall it's doable, sortta troublesome, and quite questionable, whether it's worth it or not.
P.S. For stats - I was using the Edge-Pro.

You didn't say what angle you were using. I have been told that when you put too great of an angle on this alloy that it will not hold an edge on production knives because of quality control on the temper process. Might try lesser degree.
 
I stay right on top of my Military. I gets a few passes on my SharpMaker 204, fine stone at 30 degrees, whenever it even hints at becoming dull. That doesn't happen often though. The Spyderco 440V really holds an edge.

I should mention that I'm using a plain edge Military. I wonder if some steels are better than others when it comes to serrations.
 
440V takes an INCREDIBLE razor sharp edge and holds if for a LONG time....at least the ones I get back from Paul Bos heat treat do. Can not vouch for large batches from big knife companies.....but I think the stuff is unbelievable....surpassed only by 420V.
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I've got a pair of folders in 420V, and have a hard time getting the edge right. Don't know why. 420V takes a screaming sharp edge, and holds it very well, but getting there is the hard part. Touches up pretty easy, though.
I sharpen it the same way I do ATS-34, BG-42, and everything else. Don't know why it seems so much harder to get a even edge
confused.gif
 
Folks,

Sal mentioned that he usually stops at stage three of the Sharpmaker sequence when sharpening the Military, as it seems like the best all around scratch size. He also explained that he sharpens at 30 degrees but this is because he's "testing" all the time with his. This was in response to my query about whether to sharpen my plain edged Military at 30 or 40 degrees and wondering about leaving a "micro-serrated" effect, for aggressiveness and durability of edge.

Jeff/1911.
 
Wayne :

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">a shaving edge requires a slight 'wire edge' to shave cleanly</font>

The edge just needs to be aligned and highly polished for it to shave smoothly. It is a misconception that shaving sharp edges are in some way weak, they are in fact very durable, the optimal for example in resisting impacts and torques.

Coonskinner, it is always possible that if you are having trouble sharpening a knife that there is a problem that the steel in that particular blade, either due to heat treat problems or a bad piece of metal. This seems especially likely if you can sharpen other blades to a much higher level.

I would suggest a complete reprofile with a diamond pad to remove any weakened metal and to recut the carbides. Proceed to the finest diamond abrasive that you have and then finish with a few passes on a very fine hone like the white rods on the Sharpmaker, a buffing compound, or 1000+ grit high quality sandpaper, 4000+ japanese waterstone etc. .

While I have not used 440V, I have used 420V and it was able to take a shaving sharp edge without difficulty. And as others have noted in the above, it is possible to do this with 440V .

In regards to CPM steels, they have a very fine grain structure and thus are optimized in that regard for push cutting. As Tom Mayo noted, they can take a very fine edge and hold it for a very long time due to the extremely high strength and wear resistance.

One other thing is to ask one of the knife makers who are known for being able to produce very sharp knives (Hossom, Mayo, Martin etc. ), if they could have a look at it for you. If they can't sharpen it to a smoothly shaving edge then odds are there is a problem with that particular blade.

-Cliff
 
Cliff,

I appreciate your detailed response here.

So then, should I sharpen my Spydie Military in CPM-440V to 30 degrees or 40? If you feel that this steel is capable of sustaining a 30 degree edge, I'll definitely try it. If so, I would then want to go to a polished edge using stage 4 of the Sharpmaker, don't you think?

The only knife I currently sharpen to 30 degrees is my large Calypso in VG-10, believing that the steel used in my other knives (ATS-55, AUS-8) would not support such a fine edge...Do you agree with this?

Also, I was sharpening the plain-edged Military to 40 degrees for durability, but I've recently decided that I will soon add a serrated Military to my "kit" so I would then be "favoring" the plain edge a little more; reserving the tougher jobs for the serrated version. I would really enjoy having my plain edged Military sharpened to a polished 30 degree edge, if practical.

Thanks for any help you can offer.

Jeff/1911.

[This message has been edited by Jeff/1911 (edited 06-20-2001).]
 
Well, like Tom said, I can't speak for production knives, but, I can pop the hair right off my arm with a buffed, 220 grit edge that has plenty of grab, too.
This is an edge that will dig right into your thumb like nobody's business.
Have had no toughness/edge rolling/brittleness issues with 440V steel at hardnesses up to Rc59.

RJ Martin
 
Jeff :

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">should I sharpen my Spydie Military in CPM-440V to 30 degrees or 40?</font>

The difference in cutting ability from 15 to 20 degrees per side will be significant and immediately felt the first time you cut anything. The question then becomes, at this level of acuteness does the edge have enough durability to resist chipping, impaction and deformation? That comes down to how the steel is heat treated, quality as well as particular cycles, as well as how you are using it and on what materials.

The heat treat part is relatively easy to process as the RC range is known that Spyderco uses, as is the quality of the heat treat - high. The RC is a little low for a light use knife, however it should easily be able to handle a 15 degree edge for most cutting work, even on harder materials.

The most critical part is how you are using it. Method can play a critical role, at least as much as, and sometimes even more so even than the materials being cut. Slow controlled cuts, with low twisting can be done on very hard materials even with thin edges on brittle steels without harm.

For example, I have a small knife from Lynn Griffith in ATS-34 that currently has a dual flat 9.5 degree edge bevel. I can cut 1mm copper wire, shielded cable, seperate poultry, and even cut up tin cans with no edge damage.

The critial part is that the cuts must be made in a controlled manner with a load perpendicular to the cut and *no* torques. In hard materials like these, if the edge experiences lateral forces it will snap. For example while I can slice cleanly through desk top class staples in a controlled cut, if I just do a hard rip into one, the staple will twist out of the cardboard, and in the process snap around the edge and chip it out. the damage will be sub-mm, just visible.

In regards to plastics, fabrics, flesh, cardboard, rope, wood, and similar materials, the edge will suffer no damage even if used with far less care. These materials are simply not hard enough to damage a quality blade even with a thin edge unless you are chopping of course.

Anyway, back to the Military. I would try a full fifteen degree edge. If you experience some damage, based on the RC I would assume deformation, then I would try putting a secondary edge bevel of 20 degrees over the 15 degree one once you steel the deformation out. Keep the secondary bevel small, it doesn't have to be as deep as the damage that you saw.

This dual edge profile, 15/20 degrees, is how Joe Talmadge has often described his edges. It is a compromise between the cutting ability of the 15 degree edge and the durability of the 20 degree one. Different people though cut different things in different ways, the only way to find the optimal edge level fo you is to basically keep lowering the edge until it takes damage, then you put a slightly more obtuse secondary edge bevel on and you are golden.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">If so, I would then want to go to a polished edge using stage 4 of the Sharpmaker</font>

I am not familiar with the stages of the Sharpmaker. However as for edge finish, it depends on what you tend to mostly do. For the highest performance in push cutting you want a very fine polish. However to slice harder materials you are better off with less polish. Both finishes however need well aligned and formed edges with no burr so the sharpening needs to be done with care for each case.

If you decide to alter the bevels, on the Military or other blades, I would be interested in how you make out after they have seen some use and would appreciate an email.

-Cliff
 
I have a Spyderco Starmate and have not had the problem that you seem to be experiencing. I did thin my edge down to a low angle (not measured). I did most of my work on diamond hones.

I have been getting the impression that the really abrasion resistant steels like 440V do best with diamond abrasive to shape the hard carbides. I have a range of diamond hones that go down to extra-fine. It seems to me that stropping isn't working for me with these steels. I do just a little stropping and finish with extra-fine ceramic rods at around 19 degrees. I do a minimum of work with the ceramic rods after the diamonds.


[This message has been edited by Jeff Clark (edited 06-20-2001).]
 
Just to be clear, I have a nice clean shaving edge on my Starmate at 40 degrees total, but I have never been able to get it to shave like 'other' steels. The 15 degree per side Military edge I have was able to cut a bit of A4 paper free hanging into a perfect circle, the only thing that stopped me doing this in one cut was the thick spine catching the paper and the fact thar 4" of steel is not enough for this in one clean cut.

The blade shaves very well, but only on a par with a steel like 154CM at 20 per side. Perhaos I need to 'rough' up some fresh steel with my DMT stones first, then use the Ultra Fine ceramic?

Either way, I love this steel and respect the edge holding and quite aggressive cutting even at so high a polish far more than the ability to shave hair. Shaving arm hair is a nice test, but I am sure 90% of us would get more use from an edge finished at step two or three than the silly lenghts I have gone to.

------------------
Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto

A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Cliff Stamp:
If you decide to alter the bevels, on the Military or other blades, I would be interested in how you make out after they have seen some.
-Cliff
</font>

Cliff, I have done this on my #15 and #16 shell bug inlay Mil´s.

Honestly, I can not see that great a difference. Both knives will hold its edge for a considerably long time and both will cut everything (almost) efficiently.

The logical conclusion would be, that the 40 degs bevels should hold its edge for a substantially longer period of time, than the 30 degs one.

However, since using those knives side by side for three weeks, I honestly can´t say that there is a striking difference in sharpness. Both knives have been used for about the same cutting chores (food prep, lighter whittling, rope cutting, envelope opening, cardboard cutting and filleting fish).

I believe that to really make a difference, I would have to expose both knives to more challenging tasks.

Take care!
 
What a wealth of information is available here!

Cliff, I definitely will email you once I've tried this. I will try sharpening to a 15+15 degree angle, and experiment with fine and ultra fine levels of edge polish (stages 3 and 4 of the Spyderco sharpmaker MF 204). Thank you very much for your counsel.

General, What have you found is the best all around level of polish for the Military blade for "all-around" use?

Jeff/1911.
 
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