A Canada Post Damage Claim Saga

[P. McKinley]

Some time ago I shipped a knife off to Arizona. The package was fully insured($350.00) and shipped using CP ExpressPost. The knife arrived damaged... as seen in this thread http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1228757-Handle-repair
I followed CP's procedure for filing an online claim, and did so immediately.
The following is a transcript of the email communications between myself and Canada Post representative "Claudette", and begins with her reply to my initial claim. It should be noted that during the ensuing three months I placed 9 phone calls directly to her office... not one of which was returned.
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re: 111964002 tracking # CX524940837CA
Nov. 4
to me

Hello Mr. McKinley
We keep missing each other, I have attached a letter from our web site the procedures for
Home made items.
Plesase look it over. This is an example of what CPC follows.
Thank you
Claudette
International Claims
Reclamations Internationales
CANADA POST/POSTES CANADA
B0230A-2701 PROM RIVERSIDE DR
OTTAWA ON K1A 0B1

attachment Problem.doc
"Problem
Is there liability coverage for homemade crafts and if so, for how much?
Resolution
Examples
quilt, hand-knit sweater, handicrafts
Eligible for liability coverage as a Parcel item?
Yes.
Valued amount
Cost of material + cost of labour at minimum wage rate
The customer should purchase liability coverage for what s/he thinks the item is worth.

CPC indemnifies ...
Valued amount or amount covered, whichever is lesser.
Method of calculation
Cost of labour: minimum wage rate for a reasonable number of hours, to the maximum of liability coverage purchased.
Ministry of Labour - Minimum Wage Rate
If there is difficulty in agreeing on a reasonable number of hours, the claims officer can call craft stores to try to obtain an estimate.
If there is still no agreement on the number of hours, the claims officer is to pay the retail price of the item or the maximum amount of liability coverage purchased, whichever is lesser.

Example of calculation
A hand-knit sweater is covered for $100.
The wool cost $20.
A reasonable number of hours is 40. Minimum wage is in this case $6.85. $6.85 x 40 = $274
Total: materials $20 + labour $274 = $294
The customer insured for $100.
The customer is indemnified for $100.
If the customer disagrees with the number of hours used: the retail cost of a hand-knit sweater for an adult is over $100, therefore the covered value of $100 is paid. If the retail price were under $100, the retail price would be paid.
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Peter McKinley <peter@pjmknives.com>
Nov 4
to Claudette
Hello Claudette,

Thank you for your reply. I have read the attached document and I have a few thoughts:

-The document addresses the question of liability for "homemade crafts". The item that was damaged was not a "homemade craft". I am a professional, full-time knifemaker dba PJM Knives (http://www.pjmknives.com/). Making custom knives and sheaths is what I do for a living, not as a craft or hobby. The damaged item was one of my handmade knives.

- If the process outlined in that document is indeed used to determine the value of my claim, is anyone going to ask me.....
"Was the item able to be repaired or did it need to be replaced?"
"If it was repaired how many hours were required for this repair?"
"If it was repaired, what were the associated material costs?"
It would seem like you would need the above information to do the necessary calculations.
I look forward to working through this process with you.

Again, thank you for your attention to this matter.
Sincerely,

Peter
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Claudette
Nov 7
to me
Hello Mr. Mckinley,

I have read your email, so how much would this knife be worth if it wasn&#8217;t homemade,
So we can determine the cost to pay.

Regards
Claudette
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From: Peter McKinley [mailtoeter@pjmknives.com]
Sent: November 4, 2014 7:15 PM
To: Claudette
Subject: Re: 111964002 tracking # CX524940837CA
Peter McKinley <peter@pjmknives.com>
Nov 7
to Claudette

Hello Claudette,
I have two answers for your question:
- $350.00.
- If I didn't make it, you couldn't find one.

Claudette, by the wording of your question, its clear that there is a misunderstanding. You used the term "homemade" which imply that you still consider the knife to be a "homemade craft". I believe there is a clear distinction between "homemade craft" and "professionally crafted". I did not make the item in my "home". I made it in my workshop. Knife making is not a hobby or a craft that enjoy in my off-hours. Knife making is my business, my profession, and has been for more than 12 years.

The knife in question is a one-of-a-kind piece, as are all the pieces I produce. The market value of a professionally made, one-of-a-kind, hand-crafted custom knife is considerably higher than that of a "similar" knife that was mass produced in a factory. This knife was valued accordingly, as are all the pieces I produce.

You asked: "...so how much would this knife be worth if it wasn&#8217;t homemade....". My answer, quite seriously, either pay me $350.00 to have me make one for you, or you couldn't get one.... from anywhere, for any price.

I am sorry for such a long-winded note, but I felt it necessary to try and clear up a few things. I hope I have done just that.
All the best,
Peter
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Peter McKinley <peter@pjmknives.com>
Nov 18
to Claudette
Good morning Claudette,

Has a resolution been reached in my claim?

All the best,
Peter
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Claudette
Nov 18
to me

Good Morning Mr. McKinley,
I will bring your claim forward with our International claims committee
I will get back to you

Claudette
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From: Peter McKinley [mailtoeter@pjmknives.com]
Sent: November 18, 2014 8:49 AM
Peter McKinley <peter@pjmknives.com>
Nov 19
to Claudette

Good morning Claudette,

What was the outcome of your meeting with the International Claims Committee? I'm looking forward to a resolution to my claim. This has taken considerably longer than I had hoped or expected.
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Claudette
Nov 19
to me

Hello Mr. Mckinley ,
I spoke to the claims committee,
Since you said that the knife is not homemade craft and it is professionally crafted in your workshop
We still need proof of value of the knife.

Regards
Claudette
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From: Peter McKinley [mailtoeter@pjmknives.com]
Sent: November 19, 2014 11:41 AM
Peter McKinley <peter@pjmknives.com>
Nov 19
to Claudette

Hello Claudette,

I'm not sure exactly what you need in the way of "proof of value" other than my repeated statements to that fact, as well as point you to the insurance I purchased for this package... "$350.00".

The recipient first saw this piece on my website where it was listed "For Sale" first for $400.00, then two weeks later at $350.00. That listing was taken down the same day the recipient contacted me.

As I'm sure you understand, "value" is a reflection of worth to an individual and their willingness to pay for that item. When that item is a true one-of-a-kind handmade, custom piece, and there is no other, the value of that piece is arrived at solely by the individual, and is entirely arbitrary. I priced this piece at $350.00 because that is what I believed the "value" to be, not because there are others at that price point in the market already.

So the best I can do is, as the maker of this piece.. say that its value is "$350.00".
I hope that is sufficient.
All the best,

Peter
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Peter McKinley <peter@pjmknives.com>
Nov 24
to Claudette

Good morning Claudette.

Is there any update to the progress of my claim?

Thank you,
-Peter
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Peter McKinley <peter@pjmknives.com>
Nov 28 (13 days ago)
to Claudette
Good morning Claudette,

Can you give me any update?
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Claudette via 800onemail.com
Nov 28 (13 days ago)
to me

Hello Mr. McKinley,
I have sent your file to our International Claims Committee to review.
Hopefully I will get an answer for you Monday of next week.

regards

Claudette
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From: Peter McKinley [mailtoeter@pjmknives.com]
Sent: November 28, 2014 6:37 AM
Peter McKinley <peter@pjmknives.com>
Dec 4 (7 days ago)
to Claudette

Hello Claudette,

Can you give me an update?

The expected resolution date is quickly coming up. I had hoped and expected that this seemingly simple process would have been completed by this time. Three months!! This has become extremely frustrating!

Topic: Claim - Damaged item
Ticket Number: 0111964002
Submitted: 2014/09/25
Expected Resolution Date: 2014/12/18

Thank you,

Peter
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Claudette via 800onemail.com
Dec 4 (7 days ago)
to me

Hello Mr. McKinley,
Your claim has been approved. See attached letter.
regards
Claudette

Preview attachment 100.pdf
[PDF]

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So, there's my saga. All's well that ends well..... I suppose. However, I'm left with the rather unsettled feeling that Canada Post's process falls way short of thorough.

-Peter

 

[RevDevil]

Peter, they must have one heck of a nice water cooler as it sounds like Claudette spends much time there.
Glad to hear things worked out in the end.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

It is ironic that they feel able to price a hobby item, and I'm sure they would go with the manufacturer's price on a factory item, but a craftsman's unique effort eludes them.

Obviously, it is worth what the customer agreed to pay!

 

[madcap_magician]

Man, I don't understand what the issue was with the valuation. It was insured for $350. Pay $350.

 

[KELAMA]

It is ironic that they feel able to price a hobby item, and I'm sure they would go with the manufacturer's price on a factory item, but a craftsman's unique effort eludes them.

Obviously, it is worth what the customer agreed to pay!

:thumbup: +1 Exactly, EB!

 

[P. McKinley]

Esav, Madcap - Valuation is one thing, but what really baffles me is that never once did Claudette ask whether I "replaced" or "repaired" the item. She just went with "replaced" on her own. Had she asked, I would not have lied....but she didn't, so I didn't.

The attachment to her final email to me states merely that a check is being mailed.

-Peter

 

[Esav Benyamin]

She was looking for information to fill out a list, a form. Like zero tolerance policies, no thought required.

 

[JR88FAN]

Man, I don't understand what the issue was with the valuation. It was insured for $350. Pay $350.

^ This.

Insurance is not free. It doesn't seem like much brain power would be necessary to figure out that you paid to have $350.00 worth of insurance on the knife, so it's value would be just that....

Is that not the point of 'amount of insurance'......that is the amount of their liability if they lose or damage an item.

Seems so simple....

At least it worked out.

 

[David Stifle]

I agree with the others, and wouldn't have put up with anything less than them honoring the insurance amount. I don't understand why it was even debatable. But very glad you got resolution. The question you need to ask yourself, though, is the next time something like this happens, and the value is $1,500., then what happens?

 

[S.Alexander]

It's not a production item, and was sold at a certain price which I am sure you have evidence of. I don't see how they could value your knife at any other price.

I'm glad it all worked out in the end. It seems that Claudette's lack of attention to detail has cost Canada post some money.

 

[P. McKinley]

The question you need to ask yourself, though, is the next time something like this happens, and the value is $1,500., then what happens?

Indeed I have.

I'm just finishing a fairly high priced piece that will be shipped to Baltimore. It'll be the most expensive single piece I've shipped and I'm now a bit more gun-shy. I sort of prided myself on what I thought was bomb-proof packaging, but after this...... well, hell, anyone make padded titanium knife shipping containers? Actually, a simple, strong, lightweight wooden box is what I'm considering at the moment.

BTW, the actual claim reimbursement is for full insured value, plus cost of insurance. So, I'll get back $381.08.

- Peter

 

[Thomas Linton]

At the English Common Law in in most U.S. jurisdictions, the best evidence of the value of any property that actually sold on a market is what a willing buyer agreed to pay a willing seller in an arms-length transaction (Not, for example, what you wife says she was willing to pay.)

Here, you placed the knife on a market. A buyer agreed to pay $350.00. The knife therefore, without any more facts needing to be proved, had a value of $350.00.

Anyone not agreeing with $350.00 has the burden of proving by a preponderance of the evidence that some factor interfered with the normal free market. For example, proof that the buyer was insane would tend to refute the prima-facie value of $350.00. But, again, that's a problem for someone disagreeing with $350.00.

I congratulate you for your persistence.

 

[mars5l]

maybe they were making sure you arent trying to insure a $20 knife in hopes it gets ruined in transit and they have to pay out $350. Im sure people do it

 

[David Stifle]

Indeed I have.

I'm just finishing a fairly high priced piece that will be shipped to Baltimore. It'll be the most expensive single piece I've shipped and I'm now a bit more gun-shy. I sort of prided myself on what I thought was bomb-proof packaging, but after this...... well, hell, anyone make padded titanium knife shipping containers? Actually, a simple, strong, lightweight wooden box is what I'm considering at the moment.

BTW, the actual claim reimbursement is for full insured value, plus cost of insurance. So, I'll get back $381.08.

- Peter

Peter, I'm sure you've seen the shipping tubes the New Jersey Steel baron ships his steel in, they are extremely heavy duty tubes. I saw them to the desired length, make wooden caps for them, wrap the knife in bubble wrap and insert it, and screw the wooden caps in place. They can drop it, throw it, whatever, it would take someone running over it with a fork lift to crush it. I still insure the heck out of my packages though, cuz you just never know.

 

[Bob W]

Since you said that the knife is not homemade craft and it is professionally crafted in your workshop
We still need proof of value of the knife.

Would your sales receipt and/or billing invoice been sufficient? She probably just needed something to attach to the form she was filling out.

I wonder if you weren't confusing poor Claudette with the pricing/value philosophy and discussion of "handcrafted knife" vs. "handmade craft item."

 

[MIKE969]

I would have simply provided the invoice and receipt of the sale. That's all they were looking for. The government is a huge sometimes inefficient machine but usually, common sense prevails. It just takes a little while sometimes

 

[Pellel2]

Let us know what happens at the end I am intrigued! Good luck fellow Canadian!!!

 

[P. McKinley]

Just to put a proper end to this saga... I received and cashed a Canada Post reimbursement check today.

It didn't bounce.

-Peter