A civil discussion over 420 HC Steel.

Diomedes Industries

Diomedes Industries

Joined
Mar 19, 2007
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I would love a good discussion as to why 420 HC steel seems to be not favored in the world of bushcraft knives.

420 HC is what Buck and Case (under the name tru-sharp) often use in their knives.

Here is the breakdown from H.G. Russel:

Here is the break down of what is in a 420 HC knife blade:

Carbon - .40 - .50
Manganese - .8
Chromium - 12.00 - 14.00
Vanadium - .18
Molybdenum - .6

The Rockwell hardness is: 57-59

It seems that this is a good knife blade for the price. Les Stroud uses it (Buck 119) and I wonder why the umbrage.

Can someone help me understand why this knife wouldn't be good as a EDC?

If you think it is inferior - why? All I have read is that 'they stink' and mostly this is from people who don't own them.

FF
 
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Can someone help me understand why this knife wouldn't be great as a EDC?
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Steel snobs prefer their stainless with more exotic/uncommon numbers and letters.
 
The reason I don't like 420 is because of edge retention, or rather, the lack thereof. If you use a blade made from 420 a few times, it goes dull rather quickly. More recent steels, like S30V or VG-10 hold their edges much better. Also, 420's corrosion resistance isn't that great.

There is nothing wrong with 420 per se, it's just that there have been major advancements in metallurgy, and most people choose to take advantage of that.
 
I don't like it because it's stainless. I'm just partial to carbon, it holds it's edge for a long time and takes a new edge very easily, plus it has some character after some use. I'm sure there is good stainless out there, but I'm prejudice because I've never liked any of the stainless knives I've used.
 
I've had bad experiences with Buck knives lately. When I grew up it was the end all and be all. But not long ago I bought a Buck and was not impressed at all. The steel failed me while trying to cut through 24 guage stranded copper wire. This is something I had done all the time (at the time I was an electrical engineer) with my pocketknives. There was a big old nick in the blade.

I blame the 420. Its really not a good steel IMO. The only knives I tolerate it in are SAK's. And I wish they'd switch to a better steel. JMHO.
 
Talfuchre said:
420 HD is what Buck and Case (under the name tru-sharp) often use in their knives.

FF
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They use 420HC.


But with a vastly different quality of heat treat.

Bucks is very good, while Case is a little softer in my experience.

I've actually beat the crap out of a few Buck knives and their steel holds up just fine.
 
I am partial to tool steels for some reason. I have yet to use o1, but I like D2, I also like 1095 and 5160. S30v Ive had terrific luck keeping a sharp edge on.
 
I think it has to do with it being used in a lot of bad and cheap knifes (From what I have heard) So when its used to make a good knife, from a maker that knows how to make the steel shine, it drowns in bad rep.
 
The carbon content is pretty low so it's going to be a turn off for edge holding. Personally, I wouldn't have it, the lowest I'll go is the steel a SAK is made from, but that's by necessity because it's a SAK.

That said, broadening the topic slightly, I do wonder a whole bunch about steel snobbery and knife designs. I often see designs that are frankly crap, but are made from a very vogue steel, and they get good acclaim. More often than not I suspect an apparently much inferior steel, in a far better design, delivered by someone who knows how to get the best from the medium, will out perform it. I've admitted to my anti-fashion heresy in this department before, and here I shall again: Although the F1 is a brilliant little knife, it could not depose my little Boker in 440C, so I bequeathed it. The Boker has a better handle and the blade is thinner, with a pleasing distal taper. The F1 retains it's its edge longer, but when both are sharp the Boker is a nicer knife in my hand to use. I think of it as having a car one prefers driving but at the cost one must stop for fuel a bit more often. Ho hum.

I only partially buy into the advances in metallurgy argument. For me, it only holds when one compares like things. For example: When SOG had my respect I really hoped for an improvement in the steel the Government was made from. It was an ideal design for my needs, I just wished they'd upgrade the AUS 6. They did, it went to AUS 8, but knife design changed too. The elegant simple execution of the original was lost as it morphed into an action-man toy. Sod that. Further, this board teams with people using what are fundamentally primitive carbon steels – even stuff one can bake at home with a torch, magnet, oven, a bucket of motor oil and a few shed tools. Excluding big thwackers, let's look at simple sharp slicing: Performance wise, in an identical design slicer how would they stack up against D2 let alone some of the modern stuff? Perhaps interestingly, the majority of responses I see say something along the lines of “ignore the D2, carbon XXXX is yummy”. Well, the simple carbon jobbie may well be tougher, but, and especially if you've a soap-box for the Nessmuk trinity, that isn't an issue. I contend all we have left after all this are A] appeals to nostalgia, B] appeals to patina, C] appeals of – I'm crap at sharpening modern steels, D] appeals that – the designs I like only come in those steels.... On that, 'tis all very amusing to see how people will on one hand automatically damn a knife because advances metallurgy have offered up better steels since, but others cling most dogmatically in spite of the fact advances in metallurgy have obviously lead to better steels since.

For me, the design and the skill of the maker bringing out the best in a medium is more important than the medium, beyond a certain threshold. For me 420 is setting the bar a little low. But I see no reason at all why a good design made from it couldn't work well for casual use.
 
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It's a fine steel if it's hard enough. SAKs is slightly different then 420 HC
and Case's steel is a mystery to me since I've never seen the details published.
Both Case and SAK steel is way too soft.

From my experience Buck has the best 420HC out there. I conducted a test
that included 420HC from Buck, a knife from Victorinox, CV Case, VG-10 from
Spyderco, 154CM from benchmade, and 1095 from Queen.

I cut a ton of cardboard, wood etc. The VG-10 and 154CM were on top.
420HC was in the middle, next were the 1095 and Case CV and last was the Vic.

The test barely effected the VG-10 and 154CM blades.
There was a noticeable difference in the rest with varying degrees.

Some Pros for 420HC:
- 420HC is also tougher then the higher end stainless steels.
- It is highly corrosion resistant
- If heat treated properly it will take a fine edge, a finer edge then stainless steels with
more carbon due to the smaller carbide formation.
- It's inexpensive.

Sure it's no S30V but it's steel a good all purpose steel.
 
tabeeb762 said:
IMO this has nothing to do with how good a steel it is. I don't know why people even bring it up.
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I bring it up for these reasons:

1) Les is not sponsored by Buck - so he seemingly chooses to carry the Buck 119
2) He has done a lot more on that show that I have in terms of Bushcraft and the knife works for him.
3) Emulation is a good idea for those who want to learn about doing things from people who know.

If it works for him - why is it not held in decent regard?

TF
 
Of the objections to 420HC, I think about 1/4 of it is technical, and 3/4 outright steel snobbery. Its just human nature that some times the lastest and greatest is the end all of the thing. In actuality 420HV makes a very nice edc pocket knife. It gets sharp enough to clean fish and small game as well as take care of camp jobs here and there. It is very corosion resistant which is nice in hot humid places.

Is it the best steel around? No, but how many will really need the best in an edc? I preffer a good carbon steel myself, but I have a sak or two I've carried a long way, and they worked just fine. In fact there is some nice things about not having the latest miracle steel. For one thing, it's way easier to sharpen. Out in the boonies in a survival senerio, you're not going to have your sharpmaker or other gizmo with you. You just may have to touch up that knife of yours on a flat smooth rock out of a streambed. If I'm out there, I want to be able to touch up my knife fast and easy with just a small wallet hone. If it gets sharp enough to dress that rabbit I just knocked over with a slingshot, then thats good enough. If its sharp enough to make a fish spear, then gut and clean the fish, thats good enough as well. Sometimes the pissing contest looses sight of reality.

The truth of the matter is that most people, including most on this forum, don't or won't use a knife enough at one time to tell the difference. People buy the latest thing being touted by the magazines,(gun, knife, car, motorcycle...) weather they need it or not. No matter if they already have something in the same type that is perfectly servicable, they will get the new one that is supposed to be the best thing since the flint blade, or the wheel was invented.

I have noticed one thing; a S30V bladed knife I have that somebody gave me a year and a half ago, will chip along the edge when used on some of the same things my sak or Case CV pocket knife handles just fine. It may technically hold an edge better on some cutting medium, but in general use out in the real world it is not as good a general blade as the other more mundane pocket knives I have. Plus the "other" knives I have I can touch up in just a few minutes with the little cut down Eze-lap hone in my wallet. Or with just a quick stropping on the back of my belt.

420HC is a good all around knife steel. Not the best on paper, but sometimes paper and the real world are two different things.
 
Of the objections to 420HC, I think about 1/4 of it is technical, and 3/4 outright steel snobbery.
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I agree completely. In fact, the more I know knives, the less relevant I find steel. As long as it's reasonably hard, and the geometry is there, any low end steel will work fine. 420HC is a decent and forgiving blade material, and for many applications, even ideal. Even if it's some of the cheapest stuff on the market.
 
Aus 8 is also held in low regard by most and yet I would bet there have been more blades chip out made of S30V than there has those made of Aus 8 !

Edge holding ain't everything !!!
 
jackknife said:
Of the objections to 420HC, I think about 1/4 of it is technical, and 3/4 outright steel snobbery. Its just human nature that some times the lastest and greatest is the end all of the thing. In actuality 420HV makes a very nice edc pocket knife. It gets sharp enough to clean fish and small game as well as take care of camp jobs here and there. It is very corosion resistant which is nice in hot humid places.

Is it the best steel around? No, but how many will really need the best in an edc? I preffer a good carbon steel myself, but I have a sak or two I've carried a long way, and they worked just fine. In fact there is some nice things about not having the latest miracle steel. For one thing, it's way easier to sharpen. Out in the boonies in a survival senerio, you're not going to have your sharpmaker or other gizmo with you. You just may have to touch up that knife of yours on a flat smooth rock out of a streambed. If I'm out there, I want to be able to touch up my knife fast and easy with just a small wallet hone. If it gets sharp enough to dress that rabbit I just knocked over with a slingshot, then thats good enough. If its sharp enough to make a fish spear, then gut and clean the fish, thats good enough as well. Sometimes the pissing contest looses sight of reality.

The truth of the matter is that most people, including most on this forum, don't or won't use a knife enough at one time to tell the difference. People buy the latest thing being touted by the magazines,(gun, knife, car, motorcycle...) weather they need it or not. No matter if they already have something in the same type that is perfectly servicable, they will get the new one that is supposed to be the best thing since the flint blade, or the wheel was invented.

I have noticed one thing; a S30V bladed knife I have that somebody gave me a year and a half ago, will chip along the edge when used on some of the same things my sak or Case CV pocket knife handles just fine. It may technically hold an edge better on some cutting medium, but in general use out in the real world it is not as good a general blade as the other more mundane pocket knives I have. Plus the "other" knives I have I can touch up in just a few minutes with the little cut down Eze-lap hone in my wallet. Or with just a quick stropping on the back of my belt.

420HC is a good all around knife steel. Not the best on paper, but sometimes paper and the real world are two different things.
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:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: x 1:D
 
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Talfuchre said:
I bring it up for these reasons:

1) Les is not sponsored by Buck - so he seemingly chooses to carry the Buck 119
2) He has done a lot more on that show that I have in terms of Bushcraft and the knife works for him.
3) Emulation is a good idea for those who want to learn about doing things from people who know.

If it works for him - why is it not held in decent regard?

TF
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I know what you're saying, but keep in mind Les is not a knife nut. If you're going to emulate someone, make sure they know more about the subject than you. To non knife people the type of stel matters very little. Les probably picked the 119 because its a capable looking knife from a trusted brand.

420HC is a good steel, but why settle for just good when you can have great or excellent
 
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Actually my buck 119 I tend to hold in high esteem. It was my first 'real' knife, but there are things I can do with that knife that I have trouble on others. For example, ease of sharpening. I can get that buck as sharp as and often sharper than most of my other knives, particularly stainless ones. This is especially the case with against 440C.

At the moment I've taken much more of a fancy towards basic carbon steels like 1095 - they seem to get as sharp as I can get them and hold their edge a bit longer than my buck knives do. They also don't chip out as much.

I've had my 119 and my 440C blade chip on chopping chores where the blade came in contact with small stones. This didn't happen with 1095 carbon - which rolled rather than chipped. Then again, the 1095 and 420HC was very easy to tune back to sharpness. The 440C was a PITA to get back.

All in all I like 420HC as an adequate steel in a cheaper knife. I'm a bit wary of supersteels with ultra-long wear resistance. I just find it too hard to get them to a state where I want them. Even though this seems counter-intuitive in that the knives with long wear resistance need less maintanence, I've never had a knife that didn't need a touch-up after using them.
 
I think that Les is using the 119 in his demonstrations because it is a common knife that is accessible to the average person. I have tried it for camping and didn't really like it.
 
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