A coat of what?

[Bill Martino]

I read it and I call it the Forest Gump syndrome.

Everybody hates the smartest kid in class.

 

[Tohatchi NM]

Originally posted by munk
I hope most of your 'products' were meant more tongue in cheek. Ozone layer, pesticides, preservatives?

Well...maybe. Humans are delicate yet resiliant machines. There's lots of stuff out there that we didn't evolve to handle. Getting just a whif of the wrong thing at the wrong time could send the wrong person over the edge (by over the edge I mean some sort of increased likelyhood for undesireable behavior) Then again, you could drink a gallon of the same thing every day for the rest of your life and not be affected. There are lots of things we know very little about. I don't believe the people who tell you everything is evil, and I don't believe the ones that say everything is safer than water. I'd say each is right maybe 10% of the time.

This is Rome.
There really isn't another end of the spectrum. When the rewards of a society are insufficient for participation, the alternative is narcisim. Sociopathy. Dogs, packs of dogs.

You're absolutely right. Part of America's problem is that both we and the rest of the world see ourselves as superior. It makes Americans arrogant - I cringe whenever I hear about the US pulling out of treaties or otherwise refusing to participate in global affairs. It also makes the rest of the world envious, jealous, and/or angry. It is easy for America to be seen as a great big bully. Having someone around who can do anything they want is half a step away from having a bully. Our present lifestyle is unsustainable, and sometime soon (in the next few centuries, I'd guess) change will happen. Either we will choose to embrace the world, or the rest of the world will band together and crush us. (OK, sorry if I took your words out of context munk. I definitely agree with the sentiment that the personal values of many Americans are corrupt, and I think that as a nation we are starting to reflect that personal rot, just like Rome. Also Rome eventually fell when surrounding groups ganged up against them, and I see a similar fate for America)

I really need to go home and let other people chew on the bone for a while.

 

[D7reamers]

I just graduated a year ago.

Everything mention here was being taught in school.

More time was spend on the world's ups and almost no time was spend on it downs.

And when I dropped a keychain 1" Swiss Army knife in the lunch room, the dean came down to my locker and told me someone said I had a knife about 3"-4" inches long!!!

I showed him the knife and he went "Oh,I have one these!"

Worse thing about high school was nothing, and I mean nothing was tolerated.
So-called "gang" colors and clothes, when they didn't even know what a gang looked like, colored hair, rumors that someone had a "weapon", or even an opinion about a school shooting would get you called up by the dean.

But when a word was out that there was going to be a nasty fight with possible trip to the ER, no one did anything.


On a side note,
If people fear and are forrbidden to have things, the more likely people will have desire and abuse them.
Teach people not to fear things, but to respect and use them properly, they more likely do what is right.

 

[munk]

But when a word was out that there was going to be a nasty fight with possible major multiple injuries, no one did anything. >>>> D7

Great. That's how it was when I was 18. Makes you wonder if anything changes. My contempt for public education can remain intact. They get you for a challenging remark, but a serious mob brawl is ignored. And some of the best teachers I had would not be allowed to teach in today's system.

Tohatch NM: it is less logical reaching for possibles, like a depleted ozone layer, than for things we know have happened as causes of problems. These things include uprecedented information exposure, rapid change of distribution of goods world wide, longer life expectancy, the growth of the Federal Government and taxation, and change too rapid to be assimulated by our culture, like birth control.

The bottom line is Pappy carried a gun to school 40 years ago and would never have even considered using it on a person. We have freedom in some ways; abortion, welfare supports, birth control, seperation of church and State, numerous guarentee's of 'fairness' in the nanny state, but much less individual responsibility. Now Pilots are too irresponsible to risk arming, but Senators are.

When America went along with punishing tobacco companies for our behavior a milestone was reached and left behind.

All I know is it's not my fault man, I'm gonna sue someone.

munk, victim of run-on ideology, never ending sentences, but heavily armed.

 

[Bill Martino]

I just saw a story on CNN about a high school senior who got expelled and lost a full college scholarship because he had a bag of camping gear in his pickup truck which contained two steak knives.

Does anybody besides me think we might be going a step too far?

America is far from perfect. Slavery, killing off the Indians and breaking every treaty we ever had with them, and other less than admirable actions are not shining examples life, liberty, justice and freedom for all. There's room for improvement -- always has been and always will be -- but I still wouldn't trade my US passport for any other I know of.

We got where we are because we the people generally had basic freedoms and this works. When it's really by the people and for the people it works. But governments tend to take on a life of their own and want things to become by the government and for the government. This is a very dangerous situation and why we must be constantly on guard to make sure we the people maintain these freedoms and keep control. Lose one freedom and the next one is sure to go and will be easier to go than the first. Pretty soon nothing will be left. I won't live to see it but I worry for the kids.

The world is a lot smaller today than when I entered it and will become smaller all the time. We will have to become part of the world community and I think the long range goal should be for everybody life, liberty, justice and freedom for all. It's that or blow it all to hell. It's up to the kids. God bless'em all and good luck.

 

[munk]

Well said. Everybody's worried. We want the best.

I hope what is going on today, just as insane as McCarthyism was 40 years ago, will also die out. But we don't learn. We point back to the vindictiveness of history and in the pride of our moment think we know better.

Often I've wondered if the farther we get from the individual, his responsibility, the worse things become.

Bill, my wife and I almost decided ten years ago never to have children. We have two and one on the way and I'm raising them in Montana.

munk

 

[not2sharp]

Uncle,

I am not at all concerned about the future. These kids are getting shafted. You know that, I know that, and many others know that. Sooner or later the kids are going to find that out, and each and every one of them will rebel against the idiotic system that burned them. I suspect we have drifted as far towards the effeminate side as we will ever get, and I expect that things will be getting back to basics soon enough.

For what it is worth, we began drifting to the left around 1975. If you recall the US had just ended it's engagement in Vietnam, and there was a public outcry against the military establishment, and media and toy makers who seemingly encourage military themes. It was good bye to the classic cowboy and indian movie, the classic patriotic war movie, heck even Hasbro's GI-Joe was killed off. We were all supposed play with Barbies, grow up like Ken, and watch Charlie's Angles.

That generation was old enough to vote for Clinton in 1992. But now we have started to drift to the right. There is a growing respect for the military, the films are starting to come back, and even GI-Joe has managed to assault and retake its proper place in store shelves. As these kids grow older we will feel the weight of their opinion. Just kick back and watch what happens between now and 2115.

n2s

 

[Bill Martino]

I hope you're right n2s. I worry about everything and everybody. Guess that's why I have ulcers.

 

[Rusty]

Astute observation comparing the quivering quislings today to McCarthyism, munk. ( Sorry about the onomatopoetic part - got about 3 hours sleep last nite. ) The Mrs. Grundys egging McCarthy on then - are now the Hilarys clamoring for bigger government to take care of us because we can't be trusted.

Wonder if that pepper spray bear repellant would work on ( use your wildest daydream to fill in the following ) _________________ !!!:barf: :barf: :barf:

 

[munk]

Thanks Rusty. I tried to look back and see historic perspective on stupid behavior. Witch hunting seems to rear up every 30 to 40 years. I hate the entire PC movement. Like McCarthyism, it thinks it is 'freeing' but it is self rightieous, ignorant, controlling, fascist, hypocritical, and anti americian.

The Hillaries...we got the president we deserved; Bill Clinton. I still can't believe we did that to ourselves.

munk

 

[raghorn]

Originally posted by munk
The Hillaries...we got the president we deserved; Bill Clinton. I still can't believe we did that to ourselves.

...and TWICE for cryin' out loud!

 

[Bill Martino]

It's coming down to the best actor with the best stage presence gets the vote. Nothing to do with platform, philosophy, qualifications.

Look good and say the right thing.

 

[Howard Wallace]

Herbivore supporters. I like it! Two ewes rampant supporting the great coat of arms.

The self-esteem issue is what caused me to leave public school teaching nigh on to 13 years ago. I figured that self-esteem was something an individual earned through hard work and achievement. The administrators in the high school I initially taught in agreed. Then I was transferred to another school and I ran into an administrator of the feel-good variety who did not agree. She did not like the idea that I gave mathematics homework every day, nor the fact that I failed students who did not achieve the necessary mastery of my subject. Some of the kids had been passed on and on never learning the basics they needed to start, much less finish, an algebra class. When they hit my class reality suddenly struck home. It wasn't necessarily the fault of the kids. They were in a system with amoral administrators and spineless teachers. Powerful incentives were built into the system for teachers to pass all the students. Effective feedback systems to ensure the students actually learned something were conspicuously absent.

One instance in particular stands out in my mind. A student had taken the first semester of algebra before I arrived and received an A in the class. He dropped out at the semester because he did not feel he was learning anything. Then he retook the first semester with me and was failing. He had limited understanding of basic arithmetical operations needed for algebra. He had been passed with an A with essentially no ability in the subject matter. The principal called me in for a discussion and implied that I had destroyed the young man's mind! This same woman told me verbally the grade distribution she wanted to see from me, with no acknowledgement that the achievement of the students had any effect on grades. When I asked her to put her demand in writing she refused.

I left that school and went to work for industry. In the private sector results are rewarded. If you promote aerospace engineers based on the effect on their "self-esteem," your airplanes fall out of the sky. I have not looked back, although I have devoted considerable energy in the past 13 years to homeschooling my own children. They are currently both back in public school, but have a slightly different perspective than most.

The concept that it is good to puff someone up with "self-esteem," the sloppy thinking associated with many of the modern socio-political movements, the PC and zero-tolerance ideas, are all related. There are some people who believe in an objective reality that must be observed and understood. They stand apart from those who place an unexamined trust in authority, and those who believe that reality is dependent on the way they look at it. Our future belongs to those people who respect their universe enough to carefully view and humbly learn from it.

 

[munk]

In the private sector results are rewarded. If you promote aerospace engineers based on the effect on their "self-esteem," your airplanes fall out of the sky.>> Howard

Capitalism is competition. The immediate rewards are clear. Trouble is, Government buys products from private industry not neccesarily the best for the task or the best at anything, and allows other possibles to languish. ( like the cannon genius who went to work for Saddam Hussein. ) There are many other reason's why the, 'best will not out'. Private industry and Governemt selected windows instead of Apple.

Our future belongs to those people who respect their universe enough to carefully view and humbly learn from it.>>> Howard

I'm worried, Howard, that our future does not at all belong to these and never has. After working in mental health for many years I can only say you are fotunate you have an observable product. I bet I don't have to tell you what it manufactured in its absence. They call it; 'documentation'... kind of like doggie doo is 'manufactured'.

Too bad us "citizens" are having to fight to look at our own medical records!! You'd be stunned what is there.


munk

 

[Howard Wallace]

Reality has a way of making itself known. It looked like Lysenko had a good thing going in the Soviet Union there for a while. Then reality stepped back in and the effects of a flawed theory of genetics made itself known in a multitude of very practical ways.

In a river there are whirlpools and backwaters where the water flows in an upstream direction, but that does not change the final result of where the water goes.

 

[Bill Martino]

Good thoughtful stuff and thanks.