A comparison

Kohai999

Kohai999

Second Degree Cutter
Joined
Jul 15, 2003
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So this is the R.W. Loveless shop-made New York Special, of recent manufacture....photo taken from KnifeLegends.com

The name of this style of knife that MOST makers should, imo, is the Hideout, the knife featured above....photo taken from ClassicGunsand Knives.com

This is a picture of the style of Kressler knife that I was mentioning in another thread about the knife below

This is the Ron Newton NYS that Bob Betzner posted up in a different thread.

I actually like the RWL Hideout the best, it has an over 4" blade, while the NYS has a 3 1/2"or so blade. In Bob's thread, I posted about the integral shoulders on the Newton, and how I didn't like the hollows....now that pix are here, what do you all think?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
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Well, Stevie, as you well know I'm not a true collector, but I have stayed in a Holiday Inn Express when collectors were present.

I have actually held the Newton knife in my hands and ......I really like it. I have talked with Ron, several times and coincidentally several times concerning this knife, and as far as I can remember he never ever referred to it as a NYS. It is a Newton. There are way too many differences between the Newton and Loveless knives, although in the strictest sense they can be compared (but so can apples and oranges).

If a person is really "devout" on strict Loveless styles and techniques, then he should be looking only at Loveless, because anything else will surely fall short. On the other hand if he wants a really well designed and executed knife by a great Master Smith, then the Newton might be the order of the day.

Kind of like an apple in one hand and an orange in the other.;)

Paul
 
I think the radiused transition from bolster to ricasso on the Newton piece does a lot to show the feather pattern, but I agree that a more abrupt transition as seen in the Loveless model seems oddly more natural and/or makes more sense from a design standpoint. I also prefer the less exaggerated bird's beak at the butt of the handle on the Loveless knife, it's almost as if the Newton piece is a little too shapely in the handle department. Now, with all that being said, I'll bet that Newton feels awesome in hand, even if a little hefty for a knife of this type.
 
Aahh, a bunch of knives for comparison. This makes the exercise really easy - 'cause I love 'em all.
 
Here's Loveless New York Special and Hideout models (both with hidden pins) for easy comparison.

nyspecialsm-highoutlg-1.jpg


I enjoy and appreciate when knifemakers create their "own" "renditions" of the Loveless designs. However when the makers who have/are making
their mark by creating true to the Loveless designs create knives I look for how close they adhere to such.
 
STeven

I agree that I like the hideout more than the NY special - I think the overall proportions are nicer. I love integral knives, and I think the Newton is a great piece, but I think it is "in the fashion" of the Hideout, and not a "copy" per se, and therefore a direct comparison between the Loveless version and the Newton "version" is like comparing a vintage Ford GT to the recent version :p
I would love to own either one...and I'm talking knives OR cars !

Bill
 
sheathmaker said:
Well, Stevie, as you well know I'm not a true collector, but I have stayed in a Holiday Inn Express when collectors were present.

I have actually held the Newton knife in my hands and ......I really like it. I have talked with Ron, several times and coincidentally several times concerning this knife, and as far as I can remember he never ever referred to it as a NYS. It is a Newton. There are way too many differences between the Newton and Loveless knives, although in the strictest sense they can be compared (but so can apples and oranges).

If a person is really "devout" on strict Loveless styles and techniques, then he should be looking only at Loveless, because anything else will surely fall short. On the other hand if he wants a really well designed and executed knife by a great Master Smith, then the Newton might be the order of the day.

Kind of like an apple in one hand and an orange in the other.;)

Paul
Click to expand...

What he said. I really dig Ron's interpretation of the theme here. The flow of the steel from blade to guard to handle strikes my eye as seamless and elegant. I actually prefer it to either Loveless design. Which isn't to say that it's "better" - just that it's more my kinda knife.

Roger
 
sheathmaker said:
Well, Stevie, as you well know I'm not a true collector, but I have stayed in a Holiday Inn Express when collectors were present.
Paul
Click to expand...

I'm going to laugh about that all day.

I'm drawn to the Newton most of the four. Without actually holding any, in my "minds eye" it looks to be the most comfortable in my hand.
 
Interesting "comparison", and some very good observations made.

I can see your point about the "hollows" STeven.

From a design perspective, I prefer the Hideout, but when considering the materials and the knives shown, I like the Newton most. That being said, ALL are exquisite knives.

Coincidentally, the Annual NCCA show just took place last weekend in Mystic, CT. I had the pleasure of handling some vintage Loveless treasures owned by a long time collector from NYC. One was a vintage "hideout" with burgandy micarta scales. Holding Loveless knives really allows one to appreciate the fit and finish not possible looking at pictures.

Peter
 
I wanted to say that this integral knocks my socks off.

origov.jpg
 
I think what's missing here is the fact that the Newton piece is not a copy/replica of a NYS, it is, in fact, only styled after a NYS with Ron's own skill, eye for art and function coming out on this knife in only a way that shows in Ron's knives. I am certainly not an expert at all on Loveless knives but with that being said I have not seen a Loveless key-hole integral with an ironwood handle and damascus. What I'm trying to say here is if Ron wanted to make an exact copy/replica of a Loveless NYS then he wouldn't have used damascus or the key-hole handle or the integral bolsters. It seems Ron was making this knife and styling it after a NYS with his own ideas and exposure to life coming into play making a Ron Newton knife, a knife that stands all on it's own merits with what some might say a little/lot Loveless NYS influence coming to light in Ron's knife.
 
The Kressler strikes me as a bit too angular. I am always impressed by Kressler's incredible precision but in this particular case I find it somewhat lacking in character and flow. This of course is just my own aesthetic interpretation and has nothing to do with function or how true it might be to a Loveless design, but that is my impression nonetheless.

The Newton is a gorgeous knife but in this case I would actually prefer a more abrupt transition from handle to blade. Just as the Kressler is a bit to angular for my tastes perhaps this one is just a tiny bit too curvy. Again, just my own aesthetic preferences here, and I absolutely love the integral construction and the handle design overall but I do prefer seeing more precisely where the blade ends and the handle begins. Besides I think it would cool with the damascus pattern flowing through a sharp, stepped bolster area.

As far as the original design goes, I do love that stag hideout but sometimes I wonder if I would like the design even more if the thumb ramp / guard area were part of the bolster instead of the handle. I'd love to see an example of one like that if such a thing exists...

Interesting though how such subtle differences can really change the character of a knife, huh? People say there is nothing that hasn't already been done with knives, yet we still find ways to see something new and different don't we
 
I get that the knife is not an exact copy of a NYS. The photos are there to help illustrate the similarities of shape AND the differences. The lack of an "integral" blade collar and decision to make the transition using hollows is simply the element of differentiation that I like the least. As I said in the other thread, I like Ron very much, and this is a fine knife as it stands.

If I was to order a knife like this from Ron, it would look more like the Kressler piece shown.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kyle Royer said:
I think what's missing here is the fact that the Newton piece is not a copy/replica of a NYS, it is, in fact, only styled after a NYS with Ron's own skill, eye for art and function coming out on this knife in only a way that shows in Ron's knives. I am certainly not an expert at all on Loveless knives but with that being said I have not seen a Loveless key-hole integral with an ironwood handle and damascus. What I'm trying to say here is if Ron wanted to make an exact copy/replica of a Loveless NYS then he wouldn't have used damascus or the key-hole handle or the integral bolsters. It seems Ron was making this knife and styling it after a NYS with his own ideas and exposure to life coming into play making a Ron Newton knife, a knife that stands all on it's own merits with what some might say a little/lot Loveless NYS influence coming to light in Ron's knife.
Click to expand...

Kyle, I absolutely agree and I think that's understood by all here, but I do find it a fun and interesting exercise to compare and contrast different interpretations of a similar style
 
I actually like the Kressler piece the least of all of these. And I generally really like his work - I think he is a terrific maker. Just not this particular knife. The transistion from blade to handle looks awkward and sort of arbitrary to me - especially those little step ups in the metal. And the handle looks to me like some sort of "quasi" improved handle. Not sure what to make of it. Maybe I would feel differently if I actually held it.

I know that if someone told me I could have any one of these knives, but I couldn't flip or sell it - just keep it in my collection - it would not be a difficult decision at all for me to select Ron's knife.
 
Kohai999 said:
If I was to order a knife like this from Ron, it would look more like the Kressler piece shown.
Click to expand...

If I were to.....I would ask him to pretty please draw a little more inspiration from the loveless pattern and carefully wrap the keyhole shaped wood insert in a red liner then set it in the integral knife. :D
 
Wulf said:
Kyle, I absolutely agree and I think that's understood by all here, but I do find it a fun and interesting exercise to compare and contrast different interpretations of a similar style
Click to expand...

I agree, it's awesome fun to compare and contrast knives that follow a similar style.
 
Me? I like the interpretation. it's only the profile similarity, and maybe the grinds, though, I agree.

Recall back in the eigties when Jim Weyer drafted a folder profile and commissioned fifty makers to do their own version for him.

orig.jpg


I just thought about this, although it's not as relevant.

(I own second from the right on the bottom long row. I had to have one. :))

Coop
 
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