A couple questions about 1095

C

ckwatosn

Joined
Apr 9, 2012
Messages
19
I have some 3/16 1095 carbon steel. I plan to make some bowie knives with this. The blade length will be 8 inches and about 12.5 inch over all.

My first question is about heat treating.

I have read some different things about this process. So far I plan on heat treating in a charcoal forge. I plan on using a magnet to check and see if it is ready for the quench. I have read that 1095 needs to be cooled very quickly (around 7 seconds I think). What is the best (non commercial) quench liquid? Veg oil, water, brine


Also I was thinking about "aging" the blades in coffee grounds. Has any one tried this?


Thank you for any input

Kyle
 
You sir have just opened up a can of worms.:) I do not think there is another carbon steel out there that has been discussed more. I searched and searched, even on this forum, and received good information which gave me a good starting point, but I finally just experimented myself. 1095 is not a “forgiving” steel like 5160 or 1075, so it behooves you to pay close attention to the wisdom on this site. I have learned volumes and continue to learn every day. The following is what I do for 1095.
For optimum results 1095 needs a soak time of 3 to five minutes. Depending upon the literature, the soak temperature is 1475F – 1525F. Personally, I have found that 1500 to 1510 gives excellent result. I temper mine at 425F: One hour for kitchen cutlery, 2 one hour cycles for small to medium hunters, and 3 one hour cycles for choppers/large knives.
As for your quench, stay away from water unless you really like cracking blades. You can use canola oil and achieve very good results, but make sure the oil is at 100 to 120-F.
The coffee ground thing, I have never heard of it before. Please tell us more.
Curtis
 
And the quench time is more like 8 tenths of a second not 7 seconds. Canola oil will work. Many use Parks 50. The very brave and very talented use water or brine.
 
For whatever it’s worth, here’s a quote from another board on 1095:

“Hardening: Heat to 1475F (800C). Quench in water or brine. Oil quench sections under 3/16” (1.588 mm) for hardening… ” - ASM Heat Treaters Guide

My opinion,… there would be virtually nothing to gain by quenching in water or brine for sections under 3/16”, just the higher risk of warping and/or cracking. Assuming that after forging and/or stock reduction of 3/16" it will be under 3/16", any fast oil including canola (vegetable oil) should be "ideal"...
 
Last edited:
You will hear/read many different HT recipes. Don't get hung up on what everybody else is doing. Learn about the STEEL and the HT will fall in place depending on your expectations. It is as simple or complex as you want to make it... don't stress yourself out.

I forge my blades, so there is a definate necessity to thoroughly normalize.(I would still run a normalizing cycle or two even with stock removal) I use an electric kiln and engineered quenchant. Here is my process.(After forging)

-triple normalize using descending heats 1600F,1500F, 1418F(non magnetic).
-grind, file, drill, etc...
-coat blade in a thin clay slip to help minimize decarb.
-austenize at 1475F, hold for 10 mins.
-quench in a horizontal tank, spine first.
-interrupt at 400F-500F(oil on the blade lightly smokes without drying or flashing into flame) At this point I can straighten any major warps and hopefully get a bit of auto-tempering.
-back into the oil for another 2-3 mins
-air cool until below 120F or so
-temper at 375F for 1hr
-temper at 415F for 2hrs (if there are any warps, I can clamp it to straighten during this cycle)
-temper for 2hrs between 415F-450F depending on the blade's intended purpose.

Notes:
-I mention "warp" a lot. It is not because I regularily get warping... I am just prepared for it. If you differentially HT, you may never experience warp. I fully quench my blades.
-After each tempering cycle(aside from the first) I water quench on a recommendation by Roman Landes. I will not attempt to go into detail other than it improves resistance to cold embrittlement.

When I was using a forge to heat treat, the first few steps of the above process were different...

-double normalize using descending heats... bright red, critical/red(watch for decalescence point)
-quench after the second normalization heat
-heat to dull red twice(non magnetic)
-grind, file, drill, etc...
-coat blade in a thin clay slip to help minimize decarb.
-bring up to critical(watching for decalescence point)
... quench, temper, etc...
 
Last edited:
Most of the 1095 I've received lately comes with what I consider a course grain, so as Rick suggests normalizing might be a good idea even if it's not forged.
 
I have noticed that, too, Tai. I used to think that steel came from the mill annealed and fine grained. Wishful thinking on my part. Even precision ground O1 can have non-uniform grain size. That said, I wouldn't mess with PM steels, if I used them. By the sounds of it, they are as good as it gets in that regard.
 
To check the grain, you can simply cold chisel or grind a sharp groove and snap it in a vice along the groove.
 
Thank you for all the input. These will be my first few knifes, I hope to spend more time on shaping, filing, and the handles than the HT but I do want them to be able to hold a good edge so I need to get it right but I think I am more worried about warping and cracking than I am getting it as hard as possible. With these being my first attempts at heat treating does my process in the first post sound like a good starting point, as I move along with blade making Im sure I will end up with an electric kiln and better way to check temp. It sounds like a good but of it is trial and error, I just don't want my first attempts to have to many errors. Like I said if I can get them to turn out straight after the heat treat I think I would call that a win. Also should I heat treat the whole knife or just the blade section (not the handle) please keep in mind I am trying to keep down warping I don't know if heating only part of the knife and then quenching would cause warping or cracking


This is the steel I have.
http://www.knifemaking.com/product-p/xm1220.htm
it says it is annealed, is that "normalized" or something else?

RICK MARCHAND
you mentioned "differentially HT" can you give me a quick definition on that. If it helps reduce warping that is some thing I may do some more research on it and try that.

CM FORGE

I have heard that you can submerge a blade or other metal (I have heard of it being used on gun barrels) and it will give it a antique patina look. It is kinda like Blueing a gun. It is a controlled rusting process. I have never done it or seen any metal that it has been done to. Just seeing if any one has tried it.
 
you mentioned "differentially HT" can you give me a quick definition on that. If it helps reduce warping that is some thing I may do some more research on it and try that.
Click to expand...
Simply put, you harden the edge, while leaving the spine soft. This is done by coating the spine with insulative clay, focusing heat to the edge with a torch or dipping the edge only into the oil. There are arguments for and against this but ultimately, it is just another means to an end and truly dependent on your expectations.

I don't do differential HT(I opt for differential tempering, when needed.). There are plenty of makers who do, though and they would be better to advise you in that regard.
 
Ok I have done some more reading and now I have a question about tempering the steel after the HT. I will be doing three knifes, can I heat one, quench it, and then set it to the side while I repeat the process on the other to knifes? I plan on doing the tempering in the oven in my house. I would like to be able to put all three in the oven at the same time and I also want to be able to wash off the oil so I don't set off the smoke alarms in the house. what kind of time frame am I look at between the quench and tempering

Thank you
 
The sooner the better on getting them to the tempering oven. It is possible, but, unlikely that a blade could crack just setting after hardening because of the strain introduced. An edge quench will introduce added strain between the hardened and unhardened portions. Do not drop or in any way side load before tempering. If you harden one, clean and put it in the oven, then add the second when hardened and then the 3rd and hold the tempering temp for 2 hours on the third the extra time will not hurt the first 2.
 
A student of mine had a couple 1095 edge quenched (in canola) kitchen knife blades crack laying on the bench air cooling prior to tempering.
 
Thank you for all the help. I think I have my process down. please let me know if any one thinks I am doing something that will cause me problems.

This is the basic shape I am going after.
http://www.knifemaking.com/product-p/ss475k.htm


My Plan

Cut the steel with a jig saw and scroll saw. I will clean up the edges with file, sand paper, and a 2x30" belt sander. I am going to do a ruff shaping of blade. I want to keep the spine as close to the 3/16 as possible and bring the blade down to about the thickness of a dime. I will be doing most of the stock removal by hand to keep the heat down.

Once I finish the ruff outlines on all 3 I will fire up the back yard charcoal forge, I plan to quench in veg oil pre heated to about 120. Should I leave the blade in the oil long enough to cool it down to where I can handle it. I want to be able to clean it off before I put it in the oven. I will be using the oven in my house and I don't want to fill the house up with smoke. (I may be able to use my toaster oven out side but I could only fit one blade at a time in there.) I will put the first one in at 400 for an hour. While that is tempering I will be HT the next blade and then the last. Staggering when they come out of the oven. I will let all of them come to room temp and then temper all of them again at 350 for one hour.

Once all are tempered I will do my final shaping and grinding. Add the hand guard and handle then sharpen. I will pre fit and ruff shape the handles before HT


I hope by keeping the blade thicker it will help with warping. I am not really set up to fix any warpage that will not be taken care of by tempering.

Thank you for reading and for any input you may have. Also if there is some one in the Las Vegas area that would be willing to help me with the Heat treat process it would be great. I am making these knifes as gifts for family members so I really want them to turn out right.
 
I honestly do not mean to dampen your enthusiasm, but I see a recipe for failure in what you have layed out. Not a catatrosphic failure, hopefully, but much less than you may want or expect. Just my opinion, but I think you need to do a lot more research on what you are attempting to do, if you want, or expect, a decent return for your efforts. I believe you should get things organized a little better, and buy or rent some videos that might cover what you want to do, and above all, but in relation, slow down. Try one blade first. Test it out, then move on. Again, just my opinion, but it seems you are reaching too far, too fast. IMO, you have a poor choice of steel for a beginner. A poor understanding, if at all, of heat treating, and a poor understanding of how to make and fit a grip. BUT, you do do as think best. It's your project.
 
LRB,

I know the steel I have coming is not the best for a beginner, but that is what is on the way. Thank you for telling me I am doing it wrong, but that does not really do me any good if you are not willing to answer any of the questions I have posted. As far as the handle fitting comment Im not sure how you know I have a poor understanding of fitting a grip. I have only said I was going to fit it. But if you can tell I am doing something wrong by that comment please tell me how to do it right.

I am on this forum to learn, read, ask question and get answers. If any one sees I am doing some thing wrong please let me know and please let give me your thoughts on what I should be doing. Don't just tell me I am going to fail. That really does not help me learn any thing.
 
I'll 2nd that from LRB. A bowie sized blade for your first or 3 is very ambitious. Try a small edc first. A jigsaw or scroll saw won't work. Hacksaw if you are patient with good blades. And please, knife for one knife and knives for more than one. Sorry my pet peeve.
 
Ok I will start with a smaller one, I will have enough steel to make a smaller knife as a first attempted at shaping and Heat treating. With that in mind what is wrong with my process for heat treading and tempering.
 
Ahhhh fooie.... go for it. It wouldn't be the first time someone started with 1095. You are not forging. HT one blade at a time in the forge. Do it in the dark and keep them moving. Heat the tang and ricasso area first then flip it around and heat the edge. Use a magnet to judge and give a 3-5 count after it goes non-magnetic. Quench in oil and move the blade up and down in a cutting motion(stabbing if you are using a vertical tank.). You don't want to just hold them still in the oil. Realize these might not be high performance masterpieces. They might fail and not harden... or they might turn out fine... it is more important to have fun doing it, man. If you take to the craft... we can work on improving.

I don't like seeing folks turned off of knifemaking before they even try it.
 
From Rick, "it is more important to have fun doing it, man. If you take to the craft... we can work on improving."

Pretty much puts it all in focus.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top