A custom dream

[Daniel Koster]

Actually one thing I would really like to hear an opinion on is how to attach the handle. All I know is that making unbraced right angles and then subjecting them to twisting moments is usually not a great idea. ...paging dan koster...

Sorry I didn't see this one before...


Welding two pieces together will make them quite strong. You could notch them both.."key" them...and then buttweld them together.

Then you could cover the weld with handle material.

 

[jamesraykenney]

I think that if the Tonfa was designed so the flat of the blade was riding against your arm and the edges were to the sides, it would be a LOT easier to make and use. I like the general concept though:thumbup:

The only problem with that(and it is a killer), is that you would have NO leverage when trying to slice or chop with it... Force on the cutting edge(s) would exert a rotational force on the weapon along the axes of the handle...Right where you do NOT want it to be.

 

[Krull]

One thing about the double edge tanto,is the fact that,on a back-cut,the other edge is like a seax (i.e. if you slash down then come back up) plus the tanto point is a bit stronger then a two-edge stabber

 

[Edward Teach]

For Pete's sake, why can't you guys quit screwing around and just use a shotgun?

 

[jamesraykenney]

For Pete's sake, why can't you guys quit screwing around and just use a shotgun?

Sounds like a good idea to me...
This is the type I have and use...

Plus, in Texas at least, you would get in a LOT more trouble carrying any big knife than you would a gun...
Some strange laws around here...

 

[Rat Finkenstein]

Is this kind of like the tonfa you are imagining?

 

[Kazeryu]

Is this kind of like the tonfa you are imagining?

A few small differences, but that does look pretty close. Did you make that picture or did you find it?

 

[Kazeryu]

Sorry I didn't see this one before...


Welding two pieces together will make them quite strong. You could notch them both.."key" them...and then buttweld them together.

Then you could cover the weld with handle material.

Thanks for the advice!


I wonder if the kamis have done anything like that before?

 

[Rat Finkenstein]

A few small differences, but that does look pretty close. Did you make that picture or did you find it?

I made it. I thought some speed holes might help for whipping it around, and to lighten the wide end.

 

[Steely_Gunz]

Sounds like a good idea to me...
This is the type I have and use...

Plus, in Texas at least, you would get in a LOT more trouble carrying any big knife than you would a gun...
Some strange laws around here...

I've handled one of those, James. I liked how it felt. You'll never pack one of those around in a jacket pocket unless you tell people you're smuggling a midget (please check your local midget smuggling laws before using this excuse). The guy wanted too much money for it used. He said he had only fired it a few times, but i think he was firing some hot loads through it. The bore was filthy and pin was cracked right below the grip. Too much for the price he was asking.
Not an accurate gun by any means, but heavy enough to make those .45LC cowboy loads kick like a cap gun I'd like to get one some time. It'd be good for the trail (shot loads for snakes, .45LCs for bigger critters that poke around camp at night). PLUS it looks like a flairgun
Sorry, got a little off topic again.

Jake

 

[Kazeryu]

I made it. I thought some speed holes might help for whipping it around, and to lighten the wide end.

Holes are something I have considered.

I've been debating whether where they should go, however.

The tradeoffs for holes in the tail are more speed and less wrist fatigue VS. pure power in spinning and chopping strokes.

On the other hand, the swells I've added to the tail have already changed the balance in favour of those strokes, so returning the balance to normal might not be a bad idea.

I was thinking the simplest solution for a prototype might be to place a line of holes aligned with the centroid (center of mass) so that the balance wouldn't be affected, and then see how things are. This is why I was thinking of fullers or hollows. I expect to be pretty busy in the next few days, but I'll try to crank out a more complex drawing showing the geometry ideas a bit better.

I wonder if I remember how to use Blender well enough to model these? hrm... 3D would be nice, but so very time consuming to do it right...

 

[Svashtar]

And then you need to consider the reason why I'm interested in doing this: I really think it would be awesome to have a set of bladed tonfas, and I've been thinking about them since I was about 15. And what could possibly be better than wielding the weapon you've been thinking about for years?

Wielding a custom, hand-made, fully functional version built exactly to your specifications.

I've pretty much decided that if I ever own a pair of bladed tonfas, they will be a custom order from HI... if the kamis are willing, of course. They might just think I'm being silly.

Kazeryu, just seeing this thread. This is a cool idea, but if you don't mind a suggestion you should spend a productive hour and search the archives for anything to do with custom orders. There is a reason Uncle Bill disliked them so much, and in a few hours Yvsa can give you maybe 10% of the reasons why they are such a PITA. New folks sometimes do not understand the work involved.

For starters, the phrase "built exactly to your specifications" doesn't even enter into it I'm afraid!

The Kami's are real artists, there is no doubt about it, but everything has to be put through a complex cultural filter based on their knowledge of their own skills, what the thing will actually be used for, the materials, what they can get for it, and how long it will take them away from their regular production work.

In two years I have so far taken delivery on two special orders, and both have been extremely simple variants of regular knives that were not coming as I wanted, e.g., a BGRS with a chandan handle. I did not even specify the std. bolster or brass inlaid Sword of Shiva I really wanted for fear of them making a mistake, and the extra work for Yangdu that would involve. I figured she was doing me a favor even taking the order.

I wasn't here, but in doing a lot of research it seems to me that special orders were one of the things that in the early HI days were on everyones mind, and Uncle Bill tried to be accomodating, but I think I am safe in saying that they were more trouble than they were worth to him.

If you are serious about it, you would need to supplement a full-scale drawing to the exact dimensions with an exact wooden model, and then provide weights that exactly match what you want for the finished project. Then you need to get Yangdu to agree to it, budget about $600 for the pair, and then wait 6 months for the prototype.

Then, when you get your 4 foot long 50 pound tonfa, with cho and horn handle, that could rip the door off an armored Humvee, you need to start all over again!

Seriously, good luck. This is so cool that I really do hope you can find a way to make it happen, but if I wanted one HI is the last place I would go. I would call J. Neilsen or any one of a dozen custom knifemakers I know in the US who could or would be willing to make these kind of weapons and ask them about it.

For a start, being able to speak in English is not overrated...!

Regards,

Norm

 

[Kazeryu]

Kazeryu, just seeing this thread. This is a cool idea, but if you don't mind a suggestion you should spend a productive hour and search the archives for anything to do with custom orders. There is a reason Uncle Bill disliked them so much, and in a few hours Yvsa can give you maybe 10% of the reasons why they are such a PITA. New folks sometimes do not understand the work involved.

For starters, the phrase "built exactly to your specifications" doesn't even enter into it I'm afraid!

The Kami's are real artists, there is no doubt about it, but everything has to be put through a complex cultural filter based on their knowledge of their own skills, what the thing will actually be used for, the materials, what they can get for it, and how long it will take them away from their regular production work.

In two years I have so far taken delivery on two special orders, and both have been extremely simple variants of regular knives that were not coming as I wanted, e.g., a BGRS with a chandan handle. I did not even specify the std. bolster or brass inlaid Sword of Shiva I really wanted for fear of them making a mistake, and the extra work for Yangdu that would involve. I figured she was doing me a favor even taking the order.

I wasn't here, but in doing a lot of research it seems to me that special orders were one of the things that in the early HI days were on everyones mind, and Uncle Bill tried to be accomodating, but I think I am safe in saying that they were more trouble than they were worth to him.

If you are serious about it, you would need to supplement a full-scale drawing to the exact dimensions with an exact wooden model, and then provide weights that exactly match what you want for the finished project. Then you need to get Yangdu to agree to it, budget about $600 for the pair, and then wait 6 months for the prototype.

Then, when you get your 4 foot long 50 pound tonfa, with cho and horn handle, that could rip the door off an armored Humvee, you need to start all over again!

Seriously, good luck. This is so cool that I really do hope you can find a way to make it happen, but if I wanted one HI is the last place I would go. I would call J. Neilsen or any one of a dozen custom knifemakers I know in the US who could or would be willing to make these kind of weapons and ask them about it.

For a start, being able to speak in English is not overrated...!

Regards,

Norm

I really appreciate you taking the time to warn me about what I might be getting into, Norm. As a matter of fact, I have already seen a number of threads in the archives about custom orders and some of the troubles people have had. I understand that the kamis are not a factory and won't literally produce the 'exact specifications'. (The bowie with a 9" handle comes to mind)
I also understand that clear drawings and wooden models are a must for HI - directions which don't need to be translated. I also know that Yangdu even accepting such an order is not a certain thing. I also can't deny that I have considered that ordering from someone who isn't an ocean away might be a wiser idea. But I'm not too worried about all of that just yet.

At this stage, I'm still thinking about the design. I wanted to develop some ideas and see if I could get some feedback from those who have designed or made blades before, like Yvsa or Dan. I wanted to discuss my design here because of the atmosphere and the experience present.
I know there are probably other places I could ask questions, but I just don't know the people in those places. After browsing through past threads and discussing things these past few weeks, I feel pretty confident that I'm not going to be trolled or lead astray. I feel like I can trust the people on this forum, and I felt that you might be interested in discussing this idea I've had rolling around for so long.

That's why I'm here.


-------------------------------------

On another note, here is a somewhat more detailed image which I've done up in vectors this time, so changing and adding things will be simple as time goes on. There are some notes included as well.

 

[not2sharp]

It is always better to use the right tool for the job. If you are looking for a matching pair, and you want them to look like this photo, then they would be better done if made in a modern workshop. Notice that most of the form appears to be ground from a single sheet of flat bar (about 3/16-inch 5160 would seem a good fit). You do not need forging to bring it to shape, and you do not need someone who would be forced to start with a block of metal the size of a leafspring.

Two suggested changes:
1) Make the handles rounded flats (oval rather then round), so you can index the proper position of the blade by feel.
2) Add plenty of radius to the handle extension to remove the stress point.

(The bowie with a 9" handle comes to mind)

That turned out to be an interesting knife; it looks and feels like a Kutti knife. I wonder if that is how someone came up with the original.

The HI Stubby Bowie

n2s

 

[Kazeryu]

Notice that most of the form appears to be ground from a single sheet of flat bar (about 3/16-inch 5160 would seem a good fit). You do not need forging to bring it to shape, and you do not need someone who would be forced to start with a block of metal the size of a leafspring.

That's a very good point about the size, and something I hadn't considered. But doesn't forging give more life to the metal? Even out the internal structure or something? As for thickness, I was thinking of something heftier, probably 5/16" as a bare minimum, maybe more like 3/4".

The trick is that this needs enough crosssectional area to afford protection to your forearms as well as being able to survive the moments generated by a glancing overhead blow (chop).

For those of you who don't remember or never took physics or mechanics&dynamics, a moment is a twisting force - think of a wrench.

M = r X F

blahblahblah this is all just a fancy way of saying 'this thing is long so it will bend if I don't make it thick enough.'

Two suggested changes:
1) Make the handles rounded flats (oval rather then round), so you can index the proper position of the blade by feel.
2) Add plenty of radius to the handle extension to remove the stress point.

1)Yes, the ovals were something I was planning on. You want to know where your weapons are without taking your eyes away from what's in front of you!
Also, I think an oval grip will make it easier to hold the tonfas overall.

2) Do you have any thoughts on the shape of the handle 'tang'? Could I get away with something like a oval chiruwa handle? (oval through the thickness, meaning I would need concave wood slabs)

 

[Yvsa]

Kaz your design just isn't my cup of tea but I can see why it might be desirable. At one time I probably would've thought it pretty cool myself.

Three quarters of an inch would make the devices prohibitively heavy and you wouldn't be able to manipulate them.
A 1/4" would probably be just fine and 5/16" at the most!!!!
The replica Bowies from Imperial Weapons are just a tad less than 1/4" thick and they are plenty dayumed strong as would be these devices.
N2S has given you some good points as have some of the other guys.
I agree that they don't need to be forged. What little extra strength you may gain from packing the steel would be moot for the design itself.
I'm assuming the part hanging down from the main pointy part is the handle that is going to permit you to swing the device from one end to the other.
If so I'd suggest like N2S that there be a nice radius where it meets the straight part. I'd also suggest that really good well seasoned and preferably stabilized wood be riveted on in the oval shape that N2S suggested.
That's a helluva good idea he has about orienting the piece to where you want it.

That's about my .02 cents worth but I'll gladly try to answer any questions you might have. If you do decide to try and get HI to make it you will definitely need an accurate wooden model with the part you want hardened well marked.
Even then the kamis will no doubt have a better idea and do it their own way.

Dayumed kamis anyway.

 

[Kazeryu]

I decided to let this thread sleep for a little while I got through my exams, but now I'm bringing it back up to the top.

I was wondering if someone might have some ideas on how to make a sheath/scabbard for these things. I was thinking of something like a tip sheath and 'skate guard' arrangement, but that seems sort of clumsy since it requires a snap of some kind to keep the blade from falling out. It would also be almost impossible to sheath these things on your back if there's a snap involved. Anyway, here's a sketch of my not-so-great idea:


The tonfas would be sheathed tip-downwards, with the handles being somewhere near waist-level.

Also, here's the sketch I posted of the blade a while back -- It's since been decided that the handle will be oval along the long axis of the blade for indexing-by-feel. Just thought I'd stick this here so you wouldn't have to scroll around to refresh your memory.



Hope everyone is enjoying their holidays!

 

[munk]

I don't care for the knife you guys are talking about but each to his own- it's good to pursue the kind of tool you want. It looks a little crazy to me but it's good to be crazy and I don't know nothing anyway.

I do have a warning about the Thunder 5; I can't tell from the photo, but these kind of firearms have a ratty reputation, if it is made like the double barreled 45 I've seen the frame is virtually cast pot metal. We're not talking Ruger castings here. Like I said, I can't tell from the photo, but if that's the case, I wouldn't own it for any price.



munk