- Joined
- Mar 29, 2007
- Messages
- 5,846
J Williams made some good points about shotguns, but I want to come at the whole topic from a few other directions.
To preface, I'm going to state that I'm a "smallest that does the job" type of guy. I don't WANT to cart around a .44mag if I can avoid it. I could take any game in NA with a 10 ga. shotgun, but why? I can take anything in the Southwest with a good versatile 28ga- or even .410
I...just find that when so many people get consistently successful results from smaller calibers and gauges, it gets pointless to beat your chest about carrying the biggest thing you can shoot.
And all this plays into...economics (told you I had a different direction to come at this from). Go back even 70 years, let alone 150, and you'll find a LOT more shotguns in 20, 16, 28, 32 gauge. The standard "do everything" black powder double barrel is a 20ga. (I know a few guys who hunt with smaller and NOTHING ELSE.) One reason for this is pure economics. there's less cost going into a smaller gauge. Currently, this matters more to handloaders, since 12 and 20 ga. have a huge economy of scale for commercial production.
I find the same economic argument with rifles and revolvers (I'm just going to set aside autopistols for the moment). Not only is a .22LR more universally multipurpose than a .454- I can buy a CASE of .22LR for the cost of a box of .454 - economics.
I do think that the shotgun is probably the single best thing to have in a 'one only' type of planning scenario. If I was going to homestead out right now, I'd pick 20ga. (for lack of 28 pumps), my .22s, and if I had the funds, a .41mag levergun and mathced revolver. That's for a family, going out - way out- and living. I have no beef with people selecting purely on the basis of commonality (though I haven't seen 20ga to be less available than 12), but I don't need to and won't. I'd rather reload and handload.
Economics again- one of the least examined areas of long term survival is resources and economics. You can do a lot more with a lot less- you don't *need* a 12 3 inch magnum sabot slug to take down much of anything on this continent. a 28 ga. slug pushing the same foot pounds as a hunting load for a .4x caliber levergun is gonna be just fine. just. fine.
Same thing with the .22- though in this case economics is based purely on purchase of ammo, reloading isn't done. I can get good, accurate hunting ammo for less than $20 the 500. even .32acp costs $24 for 50, and it's pretty cheap stuff! White box .38 special reloads from miwall are $16 for 50- but that's 10 times the price. of winchester Xpert bulk boxes. Economics. Sure, the .22Lr is limited- use the tool appropriately. I seriously doubt that your survival situation is going to require hunting moose a 300 yards or starving (while running and scavenging with only one firearm in a long term -starvation long- scenario.)
Economics of travel matters, too. My favorite multi-purpose shotgun is an 870 express 20ga youth model. Sure, I could use an extra inch of stock length, but short pulls aren't as bad as you might think- and my chest keeps getting bigger as I throw heavier cannonballs. (then there's coats and straps and gear thickness). 20 rounds of 20 gauge is a noticably lighter and smaller load than the same in 12ga.
Scavenging- I tend to ignore, for the most part- scavenging. I certianly have a few firearms because of the possibility, but I don't see it as a primary decision maker for emergency planning. I rack my brains for a situation where I'm wandering around without a base camp (and hence, other firearms) and running into piles of 12ga ammo with no firearm anywhere near. This is just an odd situation for me to consider.
When it comes to the idea behind scavening- having to make do, or deal with dwindling stores- I prefer to plan ahead with the idea of reloading.
Killing the zombies and goblins- I've spent a bit of time looking at actual attacks where people have responded with the lowly .22- and by and large it's a lot more effective than people let on. No, if I was doing platoon versus platoon fighting to capture the last case of SPAM on Earth, I wouldn't want to go into it with a .22 revolver. But I'm certainly not going to base my entire wilderness survival planning on the remote possibility of that. The 28ga puts out 1400 foot pounds with a slug- well beyond what people consider needful for a "sure kill" with a pistol. It's a big impact, there. I've carried a 12ga in the military, and won't argue a military environment- but I'm not pursuing a military environment!
I'm still, despite the versatility of the shotgun, torn between the .22 and the 28 or 20ga. as the ideal survival caliber. I get to hedge my bets a bit- I have a hunting accurate .22LR revolver
- I think the shotgun is more versatile overall, but I think a .22 is adequate to survive and thrive. The economic argument of reloading versus stocking up on literally dirt cheap ammo is a debate I run through in my head periodically. So far I haven't won either side of the debate.
If I could have a 3-5 round capacity 28 gauge pump (preferably with a box magazine for my fat fingers) with a 21 inch barrel and a screw in choke system paired with a target K frame .22Lr with an 8 inch barrel, I'd feel fine. seriously. What I have is barely a step down with the Model 999 revolver and 870 20ga.
I mentioned before that "our shotguns have gotten fat and lazy" - and I'll reiterate. There's very, very few things you actually *need* a 12 ga. over a 20 ga. for. There's a lack of evidence for research on the 28ga, but based on what I've read on it and the abundant evidence for the .410, I'd state that a 28ga would do anything you need, as well.
Obviously economics isn't the only factor- it can be a seriously limiting factor, though. And combining economics with versatility leads to some interesting insights into why people a hundred years ago did crazy things like hunt (for sustenance!) with stuff that obviously hasn't got enough power to exit the barrel today.
Anyone else have any economic and versatility inputs? I haven't found a reloadable centerfire that I think could replace a .22LR and still be worth the effort in terms of being more versatile on larger game. (maybe, maybe the .32SWL if you can get a well made firearm that can handle high pressures)
To preface, I'm going to state that I'm a "smallest that does the job" type of guy. I don't WANT to cart around a .44mag if I can avoid it. I could take any game in NA with a 10 ga. shotgun, but why? I can take anything in the Southwest with a good versatile 28ga- or even .410
I...just find that when so many people get consistently successful results from smaller calibers and gauges, it gets pointless to beat your chest about carrying the biggest thing you can shoot.
And all this plays into...economics (told you I had a different direction to come at this from). Go back even 70 years, let alone 150, and you'll find a LOT more shotguns in 20, 16, 28, 32 gauge. The standard "do everything" black powder double barrel is a 20ga. (I know a few guys who hunt with smaller and NOTHING ELSE.) One reason for this is pure economics. there's less cost going into a smaller gauge. Currently, this matters more to handloaders, since 12 and 20 ga. have a huge economy of scale for commercial production.
I find the same economic argument with rifles and revolvers (I'm just going to set aside autopistols for the moment). Not only is a .22LR more universally multipurpose than a .454- I can buy a CASE of .22LR for the cost of a box of .454 - economics.
I do think that the shotgun is probably the single best thing to have in a 'one only' type of planning scenario. If I was going to homestead out right now, I'd pick 20ga. (for lack of 28 pumps), my .22s, and if I had the funds, a .41mag levergun and mathced revolver. That's for a family, going out - way out- and living. I have no beef with people selecting purely on the basis of commonality (though I haven't seen 20ga to be less available than 12), but I don't need to and won't. I'd rather reload and handload.
Economics again- one of the least examined areas of long term survival is resources and economics. You can do a lot more with a lot less- you don't *need* a 12 3 inch magnum sabot slug to take down much of anything on this continent. a 28 ga. slug pushing the same foot pounds as a hunting load for a .4x caliber levergun is gonna be just fine. just. fine.
Same thing with the .22- though in this case economics is based purely on purchase of ammo, reloading isn't done. I can get good, accurate hunting ammo for less than $20 the 500. even .32acp costs $24 for 50, and it's pretty cheap stuff! White box .38 special reloads from miwall are $16 for 50- but that's 10 times the price. of winchester Xpert bulk boxes. Economics. Sure, the .22Lr is limited- use the tool appropriately. I seriously doubt that your survival situation is going to require hunting moose a 300 yards or starving (while running and scavenging with only one firearm in a long term -starvation long- scenario.)
Economics of travel matters, too. My favorite multi-purpose shotgun is an 870 express 20ga youth model. Sure, I could use an extra inch of stock length, but short pulls aren't as bad as you might think- and my chest keeps getting bigger as I throw heavier cannonballs. (then there's coats and straps and gear thickness). 20 rounds of 20 gauge is a noticably lighter and smaller load than the same in 12ga.
Scavenging- I tend to ignore, for the most part- scavenging. I certianly have a few firearms because of the possibility, but I don't see it as a primary decision maker for emergency planning. I rack my brains for a situation where I'm wandering around without a base camp (and hence, other firearms) and running into piles of 12ga ammo with no firearm anywhere near. This is just an odd situation for me to consider.
When it comes to the idea behind scavening- having to make do, or deal with dwindling stores- I prefer to plan ahead with the idea of reloading.
Killing the zombies and goblins- I've spent a bit of time looking at actual attacks where people have responded with the lowly .22- and by and large it's a lot more effective than people let on. No, if I was doing platoon versus platoon fighting to capture the last case of SPAM on Earth, I wouldn't want to go into it with a .22 revolver. But I'm certainly not going to base my entire wilderness survival planning on the remote possibility of that. The 28ga puts out 1400 foot pounds with a slug- well beyond what people consider needful for a "sure kill" with a pistol. It's a big impact, there. I've carried a 12ga in the military, and won't argue a military environment- but I'm not pursuing a military environment!
I'm still, despite the versatility of the shotgun, torn between the .22 and the 28 or 20ga. as the ideal survival caliber. I get to hedge my bets a bit- I have a hunting accurate .22LR revolver
- I think the shotgun is more versatile overall, but I think a .22 is adequate to survive and thrive. The economic argument of reloading versus stocking up on literally dirt cheap ammo is a debate I run through in my head periodically. So far I haven't won either side of the debate.If I could have a 3-5 round capacity 28 gauge pump (preferably with a box magazine for my fat fingers) with a 21 inch barrel and a screw in choke system paired with a target K frame .22Lr with an 8 inch barrel, I'd feel fine. seriously. What I have is barely a step down with the Model 999 revolver and 870 20ga.
I mentioned before that "our shotguns have gotten fat and lazy" - and I'll reiterate. There's very, very few things you actually *need* a 12 ga. over a 20 ga. for. There's a lack of evidence for research on the 28ga, but based on what I've read on it and the abundant evidence for the .410, I'd state that a 28ga would do anything you need, as well.
Obviously economics isn't the only factor- it can be a seriously limiting factor, though. And combining economics with versatility leads to some interesting insights into why people a hundred years ago did crazy things like hunt (for sustenance!) with stuff that obviously hasn't got enough power to exit the barrel today.
Anyone else have any economic and versatility inputs? I haven't found a reloadable centerfire that I think could replace a .22LR and still be worth the effort in terms of being more versatile on larger game. (maybe, maybe the .32SWL if you can get a well made firearm that can handle high pressures)
