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a different WSS firearms thread.

If I really had a need to try and hunt small game for the pot at 100+ yard ranges I'd certainly opt a .223 into the armory.
 
My neck of the woods, most shots will be at 100+ yards. Neighbor had a deer out at 90 yards on Sunday--too far for his bow--and I wouldn't have confidence on shot placement with a .22LR on a windy day. Every day here is a windy day.

The animals out here tend to be bigger as well. Damn Jack Rabbits weigh in at 75# or more.

OK, that was an exaggeration, :o, but they are big and tough. Probably laugh at a .22. Even if you bag one, they're too tough too eat. So while the .22LR is a great round, I'm warming to the .223. .270 would be even better.
 
I'm definitely a SW brush and mountains guy. I've long thought abut how I'd want to tool up for a different environment- but then there's the whole survival versus riding the range type stuff.

I never have liked the 270. Never shot one that felt at all good. a TC carbine in .223 would be a nice thing, I think with larger game I'd just go big again. though I've seen some nice shots out at a range with a scoped bolt 7.62x39.
 
Hey Guys--There is "NO" one gun that fits all situations. I agree that a .22 is a the choice for small game--even killed a deer with one as a kid, but don't want to face down a aggressive Alaskan Griz with one or trail a buffalo into the thorn with one. What we have here is a "failure to communicate". If pressed into a corner with one gun to feed myself and family--the .22 is the one. A survival battery should include several firearms to fit more situations than grouse, rabbits and squirrels. How about a .22, a 12ga, a medium bore centerfire and a .357 revolver or .45 auto. A decent shot should be able handle every thing that walks, swims, flies, crawls or slithers from that gun cabinet. Sorry, forgot to list the fly swatter. Cooter
 
Cooter DeGraw said:
Hey Guys--There is "NO" one gun that fits all situations. I agree that a .22 is a the choice for small game--even killed a deer with one as a kid, but don't want to face down a aggressive Alaskan Griz with one or trail a buffalo into the thorn with one. What we have here is a "failure to communicate". If pressed into a corner with one gun to feed myself and family--the .22 is the one. A survival battery should include several firearms to fit more situations than grouse, rabbits and squirrels. How about a .22, a 12ga, a medium bore centerfire and a .357 revolver or .45 auto. A decent shot should be able handle every thing that walks, swims, flies, crawls or slithers from that gun cabinet. Sorry, forgot to list the fly swatter. Cooter
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As a battery, I think it's not a bad plan. I think with the .22 and the 20ga alone you could do it. I'm not going to ditch all my guns except those two!

Planning for a survival scenario gets a lot more difficult if you have 4 or 5 calibers than if you have 2, maybe 3. If you are a reloader, and you have the components, it gets a lot more doable in a long term situation to have more than that.

Again, we have different types of scenarios to plan for- from a week long wilderness hike to a full on "homesteading" scenario- that's major EOT type stuff where, whether you bug in or bug out, you have to be as self supporting as possible long term.

Economics and versatility indicate to me to work from the bottom up- shotgun (and I really think a 20 beats a 12 in a lot of respects, though the clincher is handloading shells because of the economics), then .22 (revolver and rifle), then once you have your year or two of hunting (and defense as needed) with those, it's okay to plan others. But it gets expensive, fast.

My ammo store for 20ga. right now is 400 #7.5 shot, 100 #6 shot, 50 slugs, and 50 #3buck. That cost for that, commercially is in the neighborhood of $180. (give or take a little, you cna get expensive on inexpensive ammo) Add in $250 for the shotgun and choke tubes and it's a chunk of change.

My .22 stores come out to: 3000 rounds .22LR bulk packs, 100 shorts, 500 rounds 60 grain subsonics, and another 500 rounds of CC minimag. That's about another $180, plus $300 for my core .22s- one revolver and one rifle. I'm in a bit more than the 20ga, but that's 2 firearms.

Adding to that- not just out of personal gun money, but as a survival budget, a .357 revolver and levergun with a selection of ammo is going to run- with 1000 rounds of assorted ammo, close on $1200 more (depends a lot on firearms, but I'm thinking of what I've owned and paid for in a marlin lever and smith revolver) - and the .357 isn't going to be as versatile as the 20ga and .22 combo.

If you are on a real budget, finding a decent used setup of a $100 old .22 bolt- one of the savage, stevens, marlin department store brands, a $100 20ga single or double (used), and a basic stock of ammo, you should be able to be decently prepared at $350 total- and a LARGE practice budget of $50 a month - I could take that down to $35 and still be getting over 500 rounds fired total every month.
 
Here's something to consider too.
Parts availability.
For instance that H and R "survival" piece doesn't even have iron sights and the 45/410 only has a bead. Survival and scope should never be used in the same sentence.
No gunsmith on the planet will have any parts to repair it anyhow.
Another I see showing up on the tables of the mall ninjas is the old AR7 " survival" piece. Buy 3. One to shoot and 2 for spare parts.
The most useless gun ever made was the Rem Nylon 66.

Look for arms that have first rate reliability. When I was 'smithing full time I rarely saw a 1022 or Ruger auto pistol that was "broken".Usually the problem was an owner with a gunsmithing book and too many screwdrivers.
Good revolvers simply never break.
Browning Hi Powers never break.
Colt 45's were designed to keep gunsmiths in business. When they're right, they're awesome. When not, get your wallet out.
I fixed a lot of Remington 870's and 1100's and Winchester 12's/1200's but the only thing I ever saw wrong with a 500 Mossberg was a cracked off plastic safety button.That was so common I used to fire up the mill and make steel replacements 20 at a time.

I've yet to hear of a broken Mauser 98.Fixed a many a 700 and fewer post 64 model 70's. The most reliable commercial CF bolt I know of is the butt ugly 110 Savage.The old 03 Springfield is a winner too but harder to find parts for.

Calibers.
22 LR is it for me.Matter of fact I bought a Marlin 70P SS yesterday to test gut.
Like a previous poster said. Toss 2000 rounds in your pack and go.


The others you should consider who has the ammo.
Cops and Military. 38/357, 9mm, 12 guage,223,308
These are the most common rounds.
With guns in these calibers you will always be able to come up with some ammo.
 
For my personal use, I tend to shadow a lot of the thoughts in this thread. I have around 1500 rounds of .22 lr that I keep on hand. I'd like to have more than that, but money is tight and I just shoot too much! I'm using my grandfathers .22 with heavy bull barrel and full wood stock that was made in the 1930's. I've squirrel/rabbit hunted with it for years and have no problem. I actually prefer it to my 12 gauge, which I find myself only using for duck season steel shot.

I have a poke-stick .410 that has bagged more squirrel than any gun I have. That "I only have 1 shot" really teaches you how to make the most of it. I really need to get a few boxes of shells to have around.

I also have a scoped Marlin .30-30 with around 300 rounds that I'm soon to be selling with deer season approaching. I don't get into all this 1.25 in groups at 150 yards from a rest at a range. I can consistently hit apples or clay pigeons at 100 yards from a sit using my knees as brace. That's more than enough practical accuracy for me. I'm going to replace it with a Marlin .357 lever action and a .357 revolver. :thumbup:

Truth be told, the only reason I'm selling the .30-30 is because they don't make a pistol that shoots the rounds and I want a 1 caliber 2 gun set-up. The .38 specials make dandy rabbit/squirrel loads if you stick with head shots and the .357 can easily do what all I have a need for. I'm going to get my uncle to show me the ropes on reloading. He's killed more hogs/deer/bear with his .357 than I've even seen, but then again he's also bow-hunted bison :eek: and I've seen him get full limits by barking squirrels with his muzzleloader.

As far as economics go, around here a box of 20 .30-30's is 38 bucks for the cheapest, which is Remington 150 grain. A 750 brick of .22 lr's is rockin 18 bucks.

When it all comes down to it, shot placement trumps all. Shoot what you hunt. Eat what you kill.
 
My choice for Wilderness Survival is a Savage 24 with .22lr over 20ga. It's dovetailed for a .22 scope.

You get the little .22lr small game getter with the 20ga that will take slugs to birdshot. Yep, you only get 2 shots but how many times do you shoot more than once in quick succession to put something on the table?

BTW Darteres, there is a handgun that shoots the .30-30 cartridge. I haven't seen one for a long time but I think it was made by Remington, had a nylon stock, and was a bolt action.
 
Not sure but a guy seemed to have no trouble at the shooting range hitting the paper target well at 100yds using one with a scope. He used it for hunting whitetails.
 
koyote said:
When you bring up home defense, most people will default to an insistence on a 12ga. I won't argue the utility, but it's not a given.

I have no issue- absolutely zero issue, with the 20 gauge in that role. I have no issue with a .410 for that matter. (3 pellet winchester 000 load is pushing 1300fps leaving the barrel- that's like getting hit with 3 9mm+P rounds out of a carbine. at once. say what you will, it's not anything I'd feel underamred with)
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Another advantage of a home defense 20 is that my wife might find it more manageable. When the time comes to buy, even though a 12 is what is foremost in my mind, I won't turn my nose up at a good deal on a 20 gauge.
 
Toucan Oasis said:
Cuz you only shot it 12 times in 38 years ?:eek:
Take it all apart and clean it.
I'll put it back together for a 1971 Olds Vista Cruiser in mint condition.:p
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I drug a nylon 66 through hell coon hunting back in the 70's and 80's It never failed me as far as taking it apart all I ever did back then was spray it down with wd40 I would like to have it back.
Roy
 
Darteres said:
For a laugh, I looked up the price of this. I found several places selling new ones around the $230 range. I was surprised. That's not bad at all considering what it could do.
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For the reciever. Then another $150-$220 for the barrel of your choice.
 
This is a good topic as I think there are many angles and opinions that bring validity to the various arguments. Your local fauna and terrain dictate a lot of what will be effective or not and of course the skill that you have learned over the years and grew up with.

With enough practice, the 20ga will do anything a 12ga can with a little less weight. I have a .410 (which I do like), 20ga and a few 12ga shotguns. I think the 20ga would be the best economical fit for both survival/self-defense.

The .22LR in my mind has "survival" written all over it. It's inexpensive, effective on small game and most rifles/pistols can be found smaller and pretty darn inexpensive. Accuracy and shot placement are key to the success of the .22LR, but most who have grew up with them can attest to the effectiveness on small game.

I really like the .357/.38 SPL options as well. I've seen a squirrel taken with a .38 SPL that didn’t destroy too much meat...I was quite impressed! Some of the larger, hotter hard-cast .357 rounds are nothing to scoff at and can do some damage to all but the largest predators. I've often thought about the effectiveness of my Winchester Trapper in .357/.38...decent capacity, excellent accuracy out to 100 yards with Ashley XS/Ghost Ring sights.

As mentioned, the .223 is actually a decent "survival" round as well. It gets a bad rap as an "assault rifle" cartridge, but it's small and effective on game up to medium size and typically provides great accuracy. Its commonality helps keep the cost down, but it's economical and prevalent enough to fit the bill quite well. I know some states don't allow it for hunting, but I did take down a good sized doe (legal in GA) with a soft point .223...if you do your job, it'll do its job.

Once you start getting into larger calibers, you become less versatile. I love the .308, but it's really only "effective" on medium to large game and of course a great self defense round. Unfortunately, you'll most likely run across a larger percentage of smaller game which it isn't the most useful tool to put that meat on the table.

Outside of combat scenario, I think you can cover about 99% of all your firearm needs with a good .22LR, 20ga (or 12ga if you prefer) and a solid .357 revolver...all are economical, inexpensive, prevalent and effective. If you're living in some of the more open areas of the West/Midwest, a good long range bolt action would be a good consideration and prudent investment.

I have a Marlin 981T, bolt action (tube magazine) .22LR waiting for my return. Add a Remington 870 (youth) 20 gauge pump with 18” and 26” barrels along with a solid Ruger GP100 or your personal flavor pistol, and there’s not much you couldn’t deal with, hunt or fill the stew pot with. Not to mention, stocking (or reloading) ammo is pretty cheap and easy. Another option is a good .22LR pistol (Ruger, Browning, S&W, etc.) with quality iron sights; that same 20ga Pump and a good lever action carbine in .357/.38 SPL like my Trapper.

Just for the record, I wouldn’t depend on “finding” any ammo after any major crisis. What you have now is what you will have tomorrow if the world ends or some calamity strikes and closes businesses down permanently or temporarily. I don’t expect to find ammo laying around and I don’t plan on being anywhere near a situation that would have me removing ammo from a body…that’s best left for the movies and action novels.

Good discussion, thanks getting my mind of all my daily troubles for a brief moment:thumbup::D

ROCK6
 
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